Live from Town Hall - gay rights edition

Edith Whiggins is making a very passionate, clear-headed argument endorsing the controversial elements of the legislative agenda.

She said " as a woman, as a minority " she has seen what prejud is all about. She
said "I'm a 'real' Christian , I'm not a 'fringe' Christian" and that on a issue in a discussion with her husband over the weekend it came up (to paraphrase) "how would she decide on an issue with so much emotion on both sides"... She said "she'd look to her heart" and her heart told her to endorse these motions....reminds me why I voted for her (twice).

So I stepped outside to see what all the lound grumbling was about. They had the COuncil meeting on TV in the First Floor Meeting room (which only holds about 20 comfortably) and the audio of the meeting on in the hall.

After a little more discussion, the Council voted unanimously to support the gay rights platforms as well as other parts of the legislative agenda. No surprise there.

Since all these guys from Wake County feel the need to come up in here and tell us what OUR community's values are, I think I'll go over to Cary next week and tell them how to do their city planning or go to Wake Forest and tell them how to run their schools.

When Jane and I left the building there was charter bus parked outside on Airport Road. It appears that the out-of-towners and call2actioners were quite literally bused in.

Wow - thanks for the nod, WillR! I'm glad I could be understood despite shaking like a leaf - half from fear of the fundies who surrounded me and half from anger at them. I was sitting amongst a ton of grumblers, right in the border region. Priceless eavesdropping real estate, let me tell you. Also priceless MST3K real estate. I scared off at least one lady who changed seats after reading the paper with my comments on it. On my way out of the row some fundie said, "Go, brother," because she assumed I, being in a tie, was on her ragin' hatin' side, and I thought, Oh, I will go - here in just a minute or two. I was way too worked up by them to stick around for the long haul.

I'm so, so glad that there were nonreligious speakers. I'm so glad that there was that Methodist who talked about the inappropriateness of religious arguments in a house of the people. I really wish I'd stuck around to hear Ruby's comments, because it sounds like she batted that right out of the park. There were a lot of religious ideas I could have gone after - that I was once a Sunday School teacher, that I was once a choir director, that my parents are deeply religious but accept me, plus countless Bible quotes I still have stuck in the corners of my brain from childhood, but really - those are arguments to be had in a church, not Town Hall.

Loved (cough) the Call2Action people's infomercial presentation. I guess that Ph.D. didn't mention anything about tacky self-advertising when it came in the mail.

Watched it on TV with Sherri and my mother-in-law. Shout outs to:

Susan Pike -- I wish there were a thousand more like her. Everyone should know her and Jim.
The Ordained Dude from United Methodist Church -- "I am a Christian because of gays and lesbians [who tought him and had positive influence upon him]" -- who points out this religious discussion has no place in the halls of government. Bravo.
Rich Edens -- who seconds the Ordained Dude's motion, and makes a relatively passionate argument based on his congregation's experiences and beliefs.
Ruby Sinreich -- who got all up in the grill of the carpetbaggers, making them indicate whether they vote in Chapel Hill. Priceless.
Donna Bell (who stood up for non-Christians)

And many others.

Was there some mention of the Phelps people? Because I was worshipping at Binkley Baptist that day they came to picket with their disgusting signs and foul mouths. That Sunday was the annual service run by the youth of the congregation, and in the weeks prior the kids were asked if they wanted to postpone it to another Sunday so that those people couldn't ruin what they had worked on with their shouts and their hate and their will to violence and the police presence. The kids said no, we'll do it that day anyway. And they went out there to the street, where those people were shaking their signs and raising their fists, and asked them to come in and worship with us. And they did not.

The religious sermons tonight did not have much of a place in that hall of government. More important to me, all I needed to know about Christians who traffic in hate, I think I learned that day. They don't want to pray with you, they don't want to worship with you, they pay lip service to the community of God and to living the Word and, especially, to "loving the sinner." Anyone who tells you they love the sinner is lying to you -- they protest too much. It should go without saying that you love the sinner, and it is so basic that speaking that sentiment aloud is akin to making a spectacle of your worship. And we know what Christ thought of that. What the Council was treated to this evening was a textbook (and even, Powerpointed) lesson in the varieties of self-serving, immodest, self-interested, self-congratulatory, un-Christlike worship practiced by the haters.

Pharisees.

I took a picture of the bus, it will be posted here http://www.flickr.com/photos/rubyji/ (as soon as flickr.com comes back online, grrr).

Jeff, a quick comment on how the keg registration works.

First, when Ward brought this up I did a little research on keg registration (never heard of it) and found that while it was the current meme for cutting teen drinking there was no substantive research to show that it was effective or needed (for instance, in Pennsylvania, keg usage was already dropping in deference to case beer - which isn't tracked - yet - or that in Iowa, teen drinkers tended to harder liquor versus beer).

If it was just a feel good effort, I wouldn't say a thing, but....

In doing the research I called Virginia's Department of Alcohol Beverage Control to get more information on how their law works (as a practical matter). I was told that each keg has a serial number assigned to it. Each vendor is required to submit a list of serial numbers to the state. When you purchase a keg, you sign a form affirming your understanding of Virginia's keg rules (no serving under-21, etc.). The vendor collects your license # (I asked what they did if you didn't have state id - she wasn't sure - no beer?), your name, address and WHEN YOU PLANNED TO CONSUME the beer.

Wow!

This information was duplicated and placed on a big red sticker (whose current design is being revised somehow) on the keg. Now, agents of the board, law enforcement and other authorities (she didn't have an exhaustive list), can go to the vendor, get this list and visit your house to make sure you're compliant with the law. She said Virginia is now working on an electronic system to track keg purchases at a state level. I asked what current or future provisions are being made to ensure the privacy of these lists (imagine paying higher insurance premiums because you bought a keg for home use every couple months).

To be clear, to be compliant, you need to consume the alcohol when you said and you need to make sure the keg sticker hasn't been removed or defaced in anyway. To verify this law enforcement could enter your property, she claimed, with no need for any additional warrants to search for that keg.

Of course, this excuse for a search is what troubles me. Because you purchased a keg, you have to sign away your rights. As I said before, I could purchase a registered gun from Wal-mart and this, on its own, is not considered probable cause for a search. I purchase a keg under Virginia's laws, they have probable cause for a search. Seems distorted to me.

If NC's keg registration law was drafted in such a way so that it required the normal due process requirements, that probable cause existed, that notice and possible warrants are served, then it might fix the 4th Amendment concerns.

That said, of course, lacking any real studies of its effectiveness, we end up with a feel good law that's a major hassle for distributors and which will probably drive kids to consume beverages from the easier to conceal can or bottle - an unintended consequence that I'm sure Ward hasn't considered.

Well WRAL50 got yet another story wrong. I've been really disappointed with the accuracy of a number of WRAL-5/50 stories in the last couple years, but this is really slack.

Coverage of tonight's meeting dwelled on the right Rev. Ron and a Ham org supporter as the voice of Chapel Hill.

They emphasized (in that deep MSM bass voce) that there was a new conservative tide rising in Chapel Hill and that "tensions are rising in a NC liberal college town". They never mentioned that the Rev. Ron, Ham's group or the majority of their supporters were out-of-towners (in spite of a flash of the "bus").

According to them, Rev. Ron and Mr. Ham are going to take a strong hand in the next council election. Won't they need Chapel Hill voters?
I wonder who'll be running on the ticket? I guess I'll have to really scrutinize out-of-town contributions this year.

Some people might be offended by my disdain for Rev. Ron (who I've never seen or heard before) but if you're a Chapel Hillian and heard him tonight you might understand how I took
offense. He characterized Chapel Hill as a community lacking good Biblical sense (a real Sodom and Gomorrah) - needing his "specialized" brand of Christianity to save our marriages (for gosh sakes), to save our children, to save us.... Rev. Ron, did you listen to all the voices of those Chapel Hill Christians counseling tolerance and humility? I did and I don't think we'll need your or your imported shock troops to save our community, thank you - we have plenty of capable, conciliatory home grown citizens that are more than capable.

I suggest you need to look towards your own house first.

Rev. Ron, Chapel Hill, for all it's warts, is still the shining beacon on the hill. I'd appreciate you remembering that next time before you trash it.

I missed that but I am watching for other TV coverage. Anyone else catch it? I'm pretty sure I saw cameras from at least WRAL, NBC 17, and News 14..

Give some feedback to WRAL: http://www.wral.com/news/462710/detail.html

It's disappointing but not surprising that the shallow TV news shows would fall for paper-thin front of the Called2Action carbetbaggers.

NBC-17 did a much more balanced story tonight. They included both sides of the argu men t without punching up the Mr. "don't make me say the F-word" Ham or Rev. Ron's involvement. They even incorporated (though not by name) Edith Whiggin's comment about (their quote) "as a black woman, knowing discrimination."

They opened with the "there's no pill" speaker (does anyone know her name?). They followed by speaking to her partner who said that "they already felt married".

Has anyone else noticed the NBC-17 usually incorporates more facts, figures and quotes than WRAL?

So far, nothing on WTVD-11 (except the rehash of the sci teacher that let his students chug too much milk).

Oh crap, I just caught the end of the WRAL segment! They said that the fellas from Called2Action "plan to get more involved in Chapel Hill politics in the future." Uh huh.

Again, tell WRAL what you think of their "coverage:" http://www.wral.com/news/462710/detail.html

WillR, thanks for the clarification on the keg registration issue.

While it's not something I support, particularly if it violates the Fourth Amendment, I'm not strongly opposed to backtracking a keg serial number if it's found to be in violation of a law. I don't think that the person's personal info should be on the keg, and I don't think that person should be responsible for maintaining the integrity of that tag.

That being said, I think that it is overkill and will do nothing to restrict underage drinking. A law that allows police to enter a dwelling without a cause won't stand up in court, and anything less than that will be sidestepped by kids keeping their kegs indoors.

Ruby wrote:

They said that the fellas from Called2Action “plan to get more involved in Chapel Hill politics in the future.”

Yes. I have heard that Ron Wood intends to run for US Congress as the next Republican sacrifice to David Price.

It is my understanding that Wood represents a very far-right leaning sect of the community (all 12 of them) that many conservative Republicans find offensive.

Now it's the Herald Suns' turn. Ray Gronberg reports on tonights meeting. He mentions Call2Action was from Orange and Durham, but I think Mr. "don't make me say the F-word, even if I'm thinking it" Ham said that he had operated in Wake County also - did anyone else catch that?

I appreciate Ray's getting Rev. Ron's diss on Chapel Hill "I came here because I love Chapel Hill. It's not an easy place to build a Bible-believing church, because many churches here disregard the Bible...." We Chapel Hillians are like the fallen, right Ron?

It would've been nice if Ray could've juxtaposed his quote "But we want you to know we are not small and isolated." against his report of 12 Hammers that live in Chapel Hill. The irony, the irony.

I was sitting in the back and made a count when the Hammers stood or raised their hands and I thought there was only 7-8 Hillians represented. 12 or 8, in either case, I'm sure the Hammers won't make that mistake again - expect a better turn out next time.

WillR and Jeff--

Please go look at my post under "Student self-determination." I think it will interest Will, at least. I'm off to Southern States to sell plants.

The story about last night by Matt Dees of the Chapel Hill News (& the N&O) was much closer to reality.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/orange/story/2189516p-8570797c.html

"...many saw the Monday meeting as a sign that groups such as Called 2 Action won't make major inroads in this liberal-leaning community."

I watched the spectacle on TV last night and it brought a tear to my eye. I couldn't be prouder to live here. Ruby, I wanted to cheer after you spoke - good job.

Dear All,
Thanks for this! I was sad not to be able to make this meeting, and I'm grateful to be able to read your comments here!

Thanks!
ae

Thought I'd share this comment...

Opinions:Letters to the Editor
Kleinschmidt should spend his time on town business

by Ed Bowman
March 09, 2005

Kleinschmidt should spend his time on town business

TO THE EDITOR:

As if I still wasn't in a good mood after the best basketball game I have ever seen, the Chapel Hill Town Council, particularly Mark Kleinschmidt, provides me with a good laugh.

Kleinschmidt's attempt to circumvent state law by "repealing" the Defense of Marriage Act is frankly ludicrous. I would like to take this time to remind our worthy Town Council member that Chapel Hill is a city in the state of North Carolina - so, unfortunately for him, state law applies.

Instead of concerning himself with real issues that the city of Chapel Hill needs to address, he wastes everyone's time by making blatantly partisan proposals that have absolutely nothing to do with improving Chapel Hill. If Kleinschmidt really wants to change state law, then I recommend that he run for state legislature, not for Chapel Hill Town Council.

Many observers wonder why turnout for Chapel Hill municipal elections is so low - perhaps it is a result of the lack of quality candidates who run for this council. A final piece of advice for all members of the Chapel Hill Town Council: Spend more time improving the town, as this is what you were elected to do.

You were not elected to take national public policy stances about which you clearly have no clue.

Robert Dumbacher
Senior
Political science

Obviously a little snot-nosed UNC senior has more of a clue about public policy than a well respected attorney and publicly elected official who has put many years of committment into this community.

Hopefully Robert Dumbacher will run for Town Council so that we can see how much the voters of Chapel Hill appreciate his perspective.

Thought I'd throw this out there for those lobbying the legislature on behalf of gay rights. This is from NC General Statute 115C-81, ratified July 29. 1995. (medically inaccurate and discriminatory language)

(3) The State Board of Education shall develop objectives for instruction in the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases, including Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) virus infection, that includes emphasis on the importance of parental involvement, abstinence from sex until marriage, and avoiding intravenous drug use. Any program developed under this subdivision shall present techniques and strategies to deal with peer pressure and to offer positive reinforcement and shall teach reasons, skills, and strategies for remaining or becoming abstinent from sexual activity; for appropriate grade levels and classes, shall teach that abstinence from sexual activity until marriage is the only certain means of avoiding out?of?wedlock pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and other associated health and emotional problems, and that a mutually faithful monogamous heterosexual relationship in the context of marriage is the best lifelong means of avoiding diseases transmitted by sexual contact, including Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS); and shall teach the positive benefits of abstinence until marriage and the risks of premarital sexual activity. Any instruction concerning the causes of sexually transmitted diseases, including Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS), in cases where homosexual acts are a significant means of transmission, shall include the current legal status of those acts.

I had a conversation last night with Christian Coalition advocate, Edward Gehringer, (who lobbied for above law). He assured me that he does care about preventing disease and poverty and even seemed open to the idea of making comprehensive sexuality education available to those who want it—but, he worries that kids who opt for the WUM curriculum will be made fun of. It's a start. We have to keep talking to the opposition…
Don't forget that March 30th is Women's Advocacy Day at the NC General Assembly in Raleigh: www.ncwu.org or call toll-free: 866-518-7657.

PS- Theresa, maybe I'll give Robert Dumb. a call. I'll ask him to explain more about his idea that discrimination is not a real issue.

I sware I read that in the DTH and I'wasn't so sure it's not a hoax; ala Bart Simpson. Look at the guy's name. Bob Dumb Acher? But I found it in the phone book and it's his real name. I guess I'll have to be a little less skepic when I read the DTH. NOT

To bind men together in a brotherhood based upon eternal and immutable principles, with a bond as strong as right itself and as lasting as humanity; to know no North, no South, no East, no West but to know man as man, to teach that true men the world over should stand together and contend for supremacy of good over evil; to teach, not politics, but morals; to foster, not partisanship, but the recognition of true merit wherever found; to have no narrower limits within which to work together for the elevation of man than the outlines of the world. These were the thoughts and hopes uppermost in the minds of the founders of the Alpha Tau Omega Fraternity.

- Otis Allan Glazebrook, 1880

I know Robert Dumbacher- he prides himself on coming from Newt Gingrich's Congressional district, and previous letters to the editor have focused on how horrible it is for the Young Democrats to try to register students to vote.

Here's a letter I wrote in response:

I am writing in response to Robert Dumbacher's outrageous letter to the editor
criticizing Chapel Hill Town Council member Mark Kleinschmidt for his pro-gay
activism and telling him to stop making proposals that have 'nothing to do
with improving Chapel Hill.'

Legalizing gay marriage has everything to do with improving Chapel Hill.
There are thousands of citizens in Chapel Hill who are discriminated against
by the Defense of Marriage Act every day. Numerous citizens of this town do
not have the same rights as others under the law to love who they want to,
and that is just plain wrong. Kleinschmidt is working to open up basic human
rights to a huge segment of his constituency to whom they are now denied. I
can think of few things he could do that would be more beneficial to this
town's residents.

This is not a 'national policy stance' about which Kleinschmidt has 'no clue,'
as Dumbacher states. As one of North Carolina's few openly gay public
officials, he certainly has a clue about the discrimination under North
Carolina's laws that millions of this state's tax paying citizens face. This
is not a national issue- this is an issue in thousands of households in this
community every single day. We need Town Council members that have the guts
to stand up for what's right in the face of oppression, and that's why I
commend Mark Kleinschmidt for his leadership and hope that my fellow students
will join me in turning out this fall to reelect him.

Tom Jensen
Chairman, Students for a Progressive Chapel Hill

I was the gal in the red shirt who said God made me just how I am. I did hear the rumblings from Called2Action's followers & shook in my shoes. But I felt it was very important to identify myself as queer AND Christian, made & loved by God in God's image. The notion that queer folks cannot be faithful folks angers me so deeply. I understand that the 3-member so-called Christian fraternity at UNC that has filed the lawsuit not only wants to exclude "non-believers" but also "homosexuals". As if queers can't be full believers in Jesus! The overwhelming arrogance of that fraternity, and the religious right generally, has led me to stop using the phrase "Christian right" when describing them. These people are NOT Christians. Jesus advocated hard things--giving up our worldly goods; loving the least among us, including the diseased, the perverts, the impoverished; speaking truth to power; humility before God. Following Jesus means being open & loving to all, but MOST ESPECIALLY the oppressed. The marginalized were his first followers. Claiming to know what Jesus or God thinks and feels, and judging others b/c you have a direct line to God--this is NOT Christian. I can't say it enough. Progressive Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists--we need to reclaim the moral high ground. Because it is indeed ours.

I've been wondering if there really is a reference to gays in the Bible. If so what would be the biblical language for a same sex union? In the time of Jesus (or when ever the bible was actual put to writing) what would the words or phrases be?

My preliminary searches of the Bible do not find modern words such as: fag, queer, homosexual, etc.

Heterosexual unions are described with the following phrase: "man lay with his wife" Genesis 4:1

Any suggestions?

Here's a link to Robert Dumbacher's letter to the editor:
http://www.dailytarheel.com/vnews/display.v/ART/422ef5efb5a1d

and his email address in case you want to send him your thoughts:
robertd @ email dot unc dot edu

To answer some of my own questions here is a link. http://www.mccmanchester.co.uk/bible.htm
From above link:
"To say the Bible condemns Lesbians and Gays and should be followed today, is to oversimplify a complex issue. Parts of the Bible do seem to condemn us but, when compared with other, equally problematic and often sexist passages, it is clear that the phrase, "the Bible says" is not a sufficient argument for anything."

thanks google!

Apologies to Robert Dumbacher for my sophomoric attack on last name. I'm embarrassed.

Tomorrow or Friday morning, WCHL will be running a story about the on-site blogging that occured at this meeting. 1360 AM.

Most "Christian" arguments against homosexuality are founded on Leviticus 18:22 which reads along these lines: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination."

People who make that argument seem to place less emphasis on admonishments found in Deuteronomy, such as: "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:1

I'm not sure why such people think that Leviticus 18:22 trumps John 3:16, but things like Deuteronomy 23:1 does not.

WillR,

Seems that the “We are Family” video to appear on the Disney Channel, PBS and Nickelodeon on March 11th is creating quite a stir. A parent at my children's elementary school (who has access to my email via membership in a school organization) sent out a mass alert.

Here's part of the AFA (American Family Association) news alert about the video:

‘If you have children or grandchildren in elementary school, you need to know about a new video being sent to 61,000 elementary schools. The “We Are Family” video will be delivered on March 11. It is produced by the We Are Family Foundation (WAFF), a pro-homosexual organization. Homosexual organizations have long used the schools to promote homosexuality.'

AFA further says:

‘While there is nothing questionable in the video itself, the site included a teacher's guide to use with the children to discuss the video that aggressively normalized same-gender attraction and same-sex marriage. There was also a recommended reading list for children and adults that included such illustrated children's books as the lesbian tome, “Heather Has Two Mommies,” which discusses artificial insemination, and “Daddy's Roommate,” which included an illustration of two men in bed together.'

Did anyone catch the story about this on WCHL this morning? I was sleeping in - trying to avoid a cold.

Here's a little info on how the Actioneers plan to influence politics in the Wake.

From their announcement located here .

2005 Candidacy Forum
Serving the cause of Christ by serving the community

Have you ever considered running for a local public office? Have you ever thought, “I could do a better job!”? Most of us think it is out of reach or just for “insiders”. It isn't.

The Agenda

Identify opportunities throughout Wake Co. in 2005
Identify the job requirements
Provide information about running for these offices such as applications, filing deadlines and campaign cost projections
Provide an overview of the campaign process
Conduct a Panel Discussion with current & past office holders as well as people who have run and lost [ this way they'll know how to deal with their own loss ;-) ]

The Goal

C2A will offer these forums every election cycle in the hopes that committed, like-minded believers will begin to run for and get elected to local office. Change must come from within the system.

I imagine they'll try to organize similarly here in Chapel Hill. In fact, political organizing is one of their key thrusts this year:

What's next for Called2Action in 2005? A new year always presents exciting new possibilities as well as challenges.

The 2005 Fall Elections will be critical, from the Mayoral race to the City Council and School Board, not to mention all of the additional races in other municipalities in Wake County. The NC Marriage Amendment will come up again and C2A will be fully engaged. We are formulating a strategy to encourage the Wake County School Board to foster a "God & Country" ( hmmm, have the Hammers ever read the Constitution or is it just Ashcroftian toilet paper to them) mentality in our public schools... and we are confident that there will be many more issues that develop that will require our attention.

A quick check of the C2A web site will show some additional planks ( other than converting our schools into religious institutions - some with National !!! import Mr. Dumbacher) the Hammers might run on. For instance, a candidate could rail on the immorality of SpongeBob as demonstrated by their clarion call to "... educate yourself on this upcoming challenge. Above all, be prepared to act! Remember, the facts are what counts and the facts in this case are very alarming."

I look forward to a local candidate espousing the following:

The We Are Family Foundation will begin their nationwide push of the homosexual agenda on March 11 when they air the music video "We Are Family" on the Disney Channel, Nickelodeon and PBS. The video features a number of well-known cartoon characters like Clifford and Sponge Bob who openly call upon students to be tolerant of people of all "sexual identities." Just as alarming is the fact that well-known conservatives such as Senators Bob Dole and Orrin Hatch are actually backing a move in Congress to enact a "National We Are Family Day"!

Is this Councilman Kleinschmidt's real agenda - to spread SpongeBob and Clifford the Big Red Dog throughout NC from his "dead church" infested redoubt of Chapel Hill?

If you think Hammer's Actioneers should steer clear of Chapel Hill, you can contact them directly at 919-844-5454 or comments@called2action.org or

I also suggest contacting the following organizations and individuals:

Board of Directors

* Steve Noble, Chairman, Owner, Paint Co., Inc.
* Steve Henion, Vice Chairman, Real Estate Broker, RE/MAX United
* Sharon Andrews, Sales Manager, Coldwell Banker Advantage New Homes
* Jim Anthony, President, Anthony & Company
* Jerry Boyd, Small Business Owner
* Dr. Steven Breedlove, Associate Pastor, Church of the Apostles
* Elder William Cooper, First Assistant, Upper Room Church of God in Christ
* Sarah Harden, President, Wake Citizens for Excellence in Education
* Judy Keener, Christian Political Activist
* Edith Struik, Volunteer Family Resources Coordinator, Focus on the Family Ministries

Advisory Council

* Russell Capps, State Representative, North Carolina District 50
* Robert Casey, Christian Lawyers Group
* John Converse, former Wake County Commissioner
* Rev. Mark Creech, Founder & President, Christian Action League of North Carolina
* Anne Foster, Media Consultant
* Gerald Gayton, Mortgage Consultant, North Carolina Loans, Inc.
* Drew Goettman, Founder, OnlineChristian.Info
* Neal Hunt, Raleigh City Council
* Scott Lycan, Director, Pregnancy Life Care Center
* Johnny & Lynda McConnell, Real Estate Developer; Housewife
* Bill Mann, Attorney
* Ron Margiotta, Wake County School Board Member
* Don Roberts, Regional Accounts Manager, Money Mailer of NC
* Jay Stott, Priority Associates
* Pastor Olden Thornton, Raleigh International Church

and these churches that they claim support their SpongeBob eradicating efforts:

# Abundant Life Church - Pastor Stenneth Powell
# Ambassador Presbyterian Church, Apex
# Bayleaf Baptist - Pastor Ron Rowe
# Bethlehem Baptist Church, Raleigh - Pastor Bill Morgan
# Bible Way Temple - Bishop Darnell Dixon
# Bridgeway Organization, Wilson
# Calvary Presbyterian, Raleigh
# Cary Bible Fellowship
# Cary Christian Assembly
# Cary Church of God - Pastor Richard Dial

# Celebration Assembly of God - Pastor Ron Wood
# Celebration Family Church, Raleigh
# Christ Baptist Church, Raleigh
# Christian Action League of NC - Mark Creech, President
# Church of the Apostles
# Concerts of Prayer - Don Rayno, Director
# Covenant Church International, Raleigh - Allen Schraner & Jim Sink
# Crossroads Fellowship - Pastor Chuck Milian
# Faith Baptist, Youngsville - Pastor Richard Mills
# First Assembly of Raleigh - Pastor Chad Harvey

# Freedom & Deliverance Outreach Center - Pastor Lorenzo Peterson
# Gateway Christian Fellowship, Raleigh - Roger Banner
# King's Park International Church, Durham - Rich Cho
# Living Word Family Church - Pastor Steve Caronna
# Mount Olivet Baptist - Pastor Tom Vestal
# Mt Zion Baptist Church - Rev. Bernard Simpson
# Mt. Sinai Holiness Church - Bishop Harold Cooper
# Neighbor to Neighbor, Raleigh - Royce Hathcock
# New Life Church of God in Christ - Pastor Myron Henderson
# North Pointe Community Church, Raleigh

# North Raleigh Church of the Nazarene
# North Ridge Bible Chapel
# Philippian Community Church - Pastor Eric Ellis
# Pilot Baptist, Raleigh - Pastor Karl Leonard
# Pleasant Grove Church - Pastor Classy Preston
# Priority Associates - Jay Stott, Director
# Prison Fellowship (NC, SC, KY) - Ed Privette, Director
# Protect Every Child - Mary Conyers, Founder
# Providence Baptist Church, Raleigh - Pastor David Horner
# Sojourner's Fellowship, Raleigh

# Solid Rock Ministries, Garner
# Upper Room Church of God in Christ - Superintendent Patrick Wooden
# Victory College of Theology - Dr. Skip & Carletta Graham
# Wesleyan First Church of Deliverance - Pastor Charles Brown
# With Love From Jesus Ministries
# Word of God Fellowship Church - Bishop Frank & Pastor Jo Nell Summerfield
# Zina Christian Center - Bishop Waymond Burton, Jr.

Finally, it might make sense to evaluate whether you want to do business with those predominantly Raleigh-based companies that seem to endorse Hammer's Actioneers.

Here's the charming response I got via e-mail to my letter to the editor defending Mark from Robert Dumbacher, who wrote the letter slamming him yesterday.

If someone is this hateful in their youth I am scared to see what they will be like in their later life.
-------------
Mr. Jensen- Why is my letter outrageous? Because it disagrees with the
notions of your progressive (a.k.a. far leftist) organization? That is a
major problem of your side of the spectrum (besides the fact that most people
believe you are dead wrong on the issues)- you only want to hear the
viewpoints of those who agree with you; anyone who happens to disagree is
inherently 'outrageous.' Let me point out some truly 'outrageous' statements
made by you in your defense of your 'friend' Kleinschmidt. 'Legalizing gay
marriage has everything to do with improving Chapel Hill.' Please, Tom. Not
even a spinster like you can argue that the 90 percent of heterosexuals living
in Chapel Hill are going to be helped by this gay marriage proposal. 'Numerous residents of this town do not have the same rights as others under
the law to love whom they want.' Talk about a distortion of the facts.
Where in the Defense of Marriage Act does it say that homosexuals cannot love
whom they want? Plenty of homosexuals are engaged in 'loving' relationships
right now, and there is (rightfully) no law stopping them from doing so. I
won't go into great detail about basic human rights, but I can assure you
that most people do not agree with your notion that entering into homosexual
marriage is a basic human right (and no, Mr. Jensen, that's not a viewpoint
of the 'crazy Christian right,' that's a viewpoint shared by a majority of
this state and nation's citizens). I could continue this debate by going
into these issues further, but what's the point, after all Spring Break is
upon us. Good luck on your political pursuits, perhaps next time you will be
able to reach a runoff before you lose.

RTD

Wow. That Dumbacher guy is off his rocker.

IN response to the Leviticus 18:22/ Deuteronomy 23:1 comment on where in the bible is homosexuality spoken against, it is important to remember that these scriptures dont "trump" , as you stated, John 3:16. All 3 of the scriptures are true. (1)God really DID love the world so much that he gave his only begotten son. (2) and as far as Leviticus 18:22, it is an abomination to lay with mankind as with woman kind. It would do you well to read the entire passage of Leviticus Chapter 18. There is a List of abominations. Pay particular attention to the 26th through the 30th verses. All of these things names are abominations and the penalty is clearly spelled out in vss.28-30.
John 3:16 says that God Loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever would believe on him would not perish but have everlasting life. It is important to remeber that ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God(Romans 3:23). So John 3:16 is for everyone, because we were all sinners. And the Love that is spoken of in John 3:16 is for everyone, no matter who you are.

JUST REMEBER, GOd's doesn't stop loving us because we sin. BUt what he called an abomination is STILL an ABOMINATION. ANd the wages of sin is death, but the gift of GOd is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD. (Romans 6:23)
I'm praying for you ALL

Leviticus also makes a clear endorsement of slavery and indentured servitude. Raping a slave (19:20) is offensive to the Lord (requires an offering in attonement), but not as much as is cursing your parents (20:9) (offender is put to death). I don't see how anyone can believe Leviticus is "true" without some very selective reading and constant sacrifice of animals.

Much of the old testament deals with a long debate between John and Paul that didn't involve Yoko. John argued that the fallowers of christ had to stick to the traditional jewish rules, e.g eat kosher. Paul argued that christianity was a new religion and that even uncircumcised men could join. In the end John was killed when the Romans sacked Jewrusulum and that made the debate a bit one sided.
now keep in mind Jesus was fairly simplistic when it came to ethics. I forget the exact quote; something like "love god with all your heart soul and mind and treat your neighbor as you would your self"; so I guess Christians should start there. After that you have to use some judgement. I eat swine and shrimp. I think male gential mutulation is barbaric. I belive it's extream to stone an adultress woman. I own poly-cotten blend clothes. I honor my father to an extent; but I don't honor a lot of what he did (drinking himself to death before he was 40). If you are jewish I can't tell you how you should read the old testamont. If you are a Christian read it wit a grain of salt.

Sorry, that last post should hav started "Much of the NEW testament..."

also I was rude the other day when I made fun of Robert Dumbachers name the other day. That was a cheep shot and not related to the subject at hand. It was against Rubie's rules of the site. i.e. It was both crude and a personal attack. I should have strive for a higher standard.

I wonder if JKN eats pulled pork? Shrimp? Cheeseburgers? ALL no-no's according to Leviticus.

Just wondering....

To all readers: The comments of JKN will remain as long he/she is able to participate in a productive and respectful conversation here.

However, the comments of JKM are from a banned user and should have been removed sooner. The practice of intentionally trying to mislead others about his identity is just one of the reasons he is no longer allowed to comment here.

I apologize for not catching this sooner.

There seems to be an assumption that people read the Bible and then decide what to believe. Melanie's point, I believe, is that people decide what they believe and then go find Bible verses to support those beliefs. To try and use the Bible as an argument against people who have already decided that homosexuality is wrong is a bad strategy IMHO. If progressives believe that pluralistic societies are to be honored, then we should simply state that and live the example--not try and argue that conservatives are wrong. It's not a winnable debate.

Jeez, major apologies. Should have said "some" people decide what they believe and the go find Bible verses to support those beliefs. Did not mean to imply that no one reads the Bible with an open mind!

Thanks, Terri, for the nod to pluralism. It's also important to remember that not all of us in this community are Christians. What JKM's religious texts say about my sexual orientation is pretty much irrelevant to me, except to the extent that JKM and his/her fellow believers seek to affect public policy and civic discourse to the detriment of my civil and human rights. I'm glad we still have elected officials who look more to fairness and equal protection than to Leviticus.

Wow, after 4 years in Chapel Hill I just now stumble upon this place. I didn't read every post, but I wanted to mention a book that my roommate has:

"What the Bible REALLY Says About Homosexuality" by Daniel A. Helminiak, Ph.D.

from the back cover...

"Top scholars...show that those who perceive Bible passages as condemning homosexuality are being misled by faulty translation and poor interpretation"