I Want My CHL!

Whew, I read through this thread and am amazed at how quickly the discussion degraded. I spent 20 years living in a redneck, beer swilling, conservative, Bible thumping, Republican enclave and saw people treat each other with far more civility and courtesy when they disagreed than was exhibited on this website. Intense opinions are fine, personal insults, low blows, and tantrums aren't.

Surely we can debate the issues based on the issues?????????

Signing my full name in the interests of authenticity,

So, is the "Commentators" dead? I thought this was a pretty good show, especially considering when it brought local issues to the table.

WCHL has a lot to be commended for in its coverage of local issues, personalities and politics (even though there's been some fairly strange omissions), so a move to canned 'localized' national content would be a sad day.

Maybe something like a Chapel Hill version of WCOM could pickup some of the slack.

I think WCHL is trying to get local shows done by local people. Trouble is people are busy. There are *a lot* of tallented writers, producers, and mic tallent in Chapel Hill. Who has the time, energy, and tallent? Any nominations? :-)

Are the next day headlines with CHHerald really gone? I looked forward to hearing Neil Offen because he not only reported what would be happening the next day in the news, but he would expand upon it a little and discuss the issues. I am a subscriber to the CHHerald, and their discussions the day before would in no way prevent my reading the article the next day. I looked forward to reading the article as a result.

This is very, very tangential, but it is amusing.

I was just looking at Google.com's news site: http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&gl=us

when I noticed that there is an article cited on the potential impact of Mr. Gonzales on the US Department of Justice - an article from the Daily Tar Heel!! Go DTH!

Here's a link to the DTH article:
http://www.dailytarheel.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/11/12/4194b5aff37b6

What happened to the "little local station that could?" It HAS to be about money and ratings/ratings and money... just like all commercial broadcasters. They obviously believe that it is better to abandon the community for the bigger Triangle market and a slot near the bottom of the ratings than to be a local voice and news source. Ironically, FCC licensure is based in no small part on community service. Guess we'll be getting the latest from Cary and Raleigh city council meetings. Sadly, their real market goes only as far as their signal transmits... should have invested in a better antenna or been granted more power... and changed their call letters to WTRI before switching formats.

The website for CHL still has The Commentators, D.G., The Special Hour and all that. I'll admit I haven't listened lately - my AM reception is bad - but are we sure those local programs are really gone?

Yep, Ruby. Histoire. Initially it was just a change from Jim Heavener's voice announcements to a big-market sounding "the voice" type of announcer. Didn't sound too bad. Then they pulled the mic and plugged it into the can. I think it's all canned from The Commentators through The Last Word except for some local news blurbs. In addition, their FCC license includes power restrictions (not their faults) from local sunset through local sunrise (or possibly a change in antennae directionality). Therefore, they are really LOCAL and can be HEARD from local sunrise time through 9am and from 6pm through local sunset time. For instance, today's sunrise is 6:51am and sunset is 5:10pm. So, at my home, I can actually hear truly local programming from WCHL for... (calculating in my head) 1hour and 19 minutes per day! That'll help local listenership. Sheesh!!

I believe the Commentators are still on during Run Stutts and Eleanor Murray's show in the morning.

OK, I checked their web site also. Here is the programming schedule:

http://www.wchl1360.com/programschedule.jsp

9am used to be The Special Hour (yes, I meant The Special Hour on my previous post, and not the Commentators), and now it's canned from 9am until DG's show at 6pm.
Whatever.

Speaking of "The Commentators," hasn't Terri Tyson been one of them? If so, has she had the umitigated gall to get on the radio and read her disgusting comparison of the attack on Republican HQ in Raleigh to KRISTALLNACHT!

[CONTENT REMOVED. -Ed.]

Ron, I'm not a fan of Ed Schultz, really. I just turn on Randi Rhodes on line when he comes on WCHL. But I understand he's sort of aiming at a different audience.

Duncan,
First of all, why is it your personal job to keep me in line and censor my letters? As far as my letter not belonging in civil society, the Editor of the newspaper made the decision to print the letter, therefore it does belong. Why don't you follow the rules of your website instead of making hateful personal insults? The insults are extreme as well as contradictory. You don't argue with the other points in my letter, you just throw every insult imaginable at me. Yes, I'm made of unmitigated gall; that's what it takes to express a conservative or even moderate view in this town. You thoroughly proved the points raised in my last two letters about intolerance and name calling.
I believe that you know that I am Jewish. I have been agonizing about the Holocaust my entire life and believe that one of the lessons that we learn from it is that you do not stay silent when violence occurs. The Nazis violently got rid of all of the other political parties in Germany; it's called a dictatorship!
An angry politicized mob storming a building at night and breaking glass in our local area was very troubling to me! Political violence should be protested because we don't know where it will lead. My reference to past events was relevant and should be mentioned so people will not forget what happened.

"Try to criticize (or criciticize?) ideas instead of people. In other words, play nice!"

I only recently learned about this website and I've enjoyed going back and reading the thoughts, opinions and ideas of the folks posting here. If the editor(s) want to allow such hateful diatribes as the one above, perhaps the rule should be there are no rules.

While I think Duncan's tone is unneccesarily mean, I can understand his outraged respone to your disturbing remarks, Terri. Your comparison of the North Carolina Republican Party to jews in the holocaust is deeply confused at best. And your comparison of a small band of anarchist activist/vandals to the nazi government? I don't have words. I'm just shocked that you could compare politically-motivated property crime to a government-sponsored progrom against an oppressed ethnic community.

Especially right now, there's nothing "oppressed" about the Republican Party. In fact, I would argue that folks who don't agree with them are facing increasing political intimidation from our government. Don't beleive me? Check out the recent thread about WUNC's quaking in fear of a federal agency that might find the term "reproductive rights" controversial. The threat of government harrasment against public radio is apparently quite real. http://orangepolitics.org/2004/11/censorship-at-wunc/

If you really believe that "political violence should be protested" then I presume you are catching the next plane to Ohio where Republicans committed widespread voter fraud and ethnic intimidation and stole the second presidential election in a row. Or perhaps you are demonstrating against the atrocities at Abu Ghraib? Talk about political violence!

I believe that what those people did to the GOP office was wrong, as are the ongoing attacks at a local activists' home. http://orangepolitics.org/2004/10/fourth-vandal-attack-at-community-advo...
These vandals should be prosecuted for their crimes, and they very likely will be. How is this like a murderous, state-sponsored military invasion, Terri? How can you even think that, I just don't understand.

You are one of the most outspoken citizens in Chapel Hill, so I don't see how you can argue that anyone is stifling you or suppressing your views. People here might not agree with what you have to say, but no-one is stopping you from saying it. Your charge of "censorship" is totally unwarranted, and adds to your decreasing credibility.

Donna, we encourage people to act like adults but we can't enforce it. One person's childish diatribe is another person's righteous indignation.

What is removed from OP is anything that vaguely resembles hate speech (such as personal attacks based on ethnicity, sexuality, etc.) or is completely off-topic. I think we're pretty liberal regarding what we let stand here, which is why it's pretty amusing to be regularly charged with censorship.

If people disagree with Duncan's point or with how he makes it, then make your counter argument and show how he is wrong. If people think he has gone outside the norm, then the community response will demonstrate that. (Unless people choose to just ignore him, which is another way to deal with people who present their argument in a way you find unacceptable.)

I agree with you that the way Duncan made his point in this case detracts from his argument, but I also think outrage is a reasonable reaction. We all have to think here about how we can advance our causes by making our points more effectively.

Ruby--I don't think Ms. Tyson was accusing YOU of censorship--I believe those comments were directed at Duncan.

And, while I think it is ridiculous hyperbole to compare the trashing of the Republican headquarters to Kristalnacht, I hardly think Ms. Tyson is the only person to have indulged in hyperbole this political season. If I hear one more person call this political season "civil war" (no, that would have been 1861-1865) or talk about this being "the most divided the country has ever been" (see above dates) I'll scream. Or something.

Can we please ratchet the rhetoric down a notch or two? BOTH parties indulged in hyperbole pre- and post- election. Both parties had idiots who trashed signs, etc. NEITHER party violated the other's headquarters THIS season (we won't talk about 1972...) that was he anarchists.

oy.

I, for one, agree with the point of the Letter to the Editor that Terri Tyson submitted to the Chapel Hill Herald. The point being that there needs to be more tolerance and civility in politics. I think it is unfortunate that there is lunatic fringe on both the left and the right that choose to express themselves politically through violence. That is just wrong regardless of belief.

It is particularly troubling that the lunatic fringe seems to be growing (again, both on the left and the right). In Orange County especially, I have noticed through my own experiences that with some folks, "tolerance ends" when opinions differ.

Regardless if one agrees with Terri Tyson's opinion or not, I think to call her "decreasing credibility" into question, to call her "stupid" and to attack her personally is more than a little tacky.

I recall reading Terri's letter and wondering what Kristallnachtt was. Since the word looked German to me, I figured it had something to do with the Holocaust (I knew she is Jewish). So, I don't doubt her when she says she was deeply troubled by this act of violence. This is not the reaction of a morally bankrupt, evil, black-hearted woman. I take her point that we should all be concerned when this sort of thing happens.

It could be inferred from her letter that she is comparing the vandals (who are assumed to be Democrats) to Nazis. In this case, I would have to be offended since I am a registered Democrat (soon to be unaffiliated). This is doubtful, though, since Terri is a Democrat (at least she was when she ran for town council).

Both Terri's letter and Duncan's reponse were ludicrously exaggerated. So many of the world's problems escalate because one side feels they must injure the other more than they were injured. Duncan's response would have been so much more effective if he had only attacked Terri's letter, rather than Terri personally.

Donna, regardless of whether Terri is a 'Democrat,' it is clear that the vandals (who were caught) are unaffiliated and perhaps not even registered - they were avowed Anarchists okay? Decidedly not Democrat or Republican. Actually, politically, Anarchists are basically that place where left meets right on the political wheel.

Duncan, try counting to ten before posting. Make that 100, maybe.

Terri, let's take a look at the two events:

Kristalnacht - Government initiates program of repressing a large minority group, which rapidly results in the deaths of millions upon millions of innocent Jews.

Raleigh Republican HQ Attack - A small, small minority of the public initiates a totally ineffective attack that results in some broken glass and an attempted arson charge.

Lock these jackasses up, but I mean really it's not a prelude to Auschwitz.

Jeff,
I don't know who the loathing Terri is,
but it is not Terri Tyson. She has never posted anywhere about loathing anyone. She always signs her full name.

"Terri" is usually Terri Buckner.

"Terri Tyson" is hopefully Terri Tyson.

Two very different people.

Also, Donna Bozarth has occasionally signed as Donna B which makes people think that the comment is from Donna Bell (who is an author on this site).

Again, two very different people.

By the way, please don't confuse Mark K with Mark M or Mark C.

Three very different people!

But who is this Mark H guy who posted above? Last names help, folks.

Could someone provide a link to or a copy of Terri Tyson's letter? Thanks so much.

According to the report I read in the N&O, effigies of Bush AND Kerry were burned by the self-proclaimed anarchists/vandals. These weren't disgruntled Democrats--they were advocates of anarchy. How did we get from there to a lecture on political tolerance?

The letter can be found at:
http://heraldsun.com/opinion/chhletters/ (Dated November 13)

The report in the N&O can be found at:
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/wake/raleigh/story/1806984p-8108947c.html

I think the part of the letter that drove this said: "When I saw the broken glass at headquarters on TV, it reminded me of events that occurred during "Kristallnacht." Though this comparison may seem extreme, there is a slippery slope when people start hating each other."

It someone wants to attack Mrs. Tyson for why some events should or should not remind her of something, fine, but why all the name calling? Why read so much into what she wrote?

Oh, I get it. Using Nazi analogies is cool in some cases, but not in others. Hmm. Don't most of you scrutinize yourselves for self-contradictions from time to time?

To readers on both or all sides: Hitler's regime murdered members of Parliament (MPs) within weeks of coming to power, and it shipped other MPs to concentration camps, so that Hitler could have the constitution amended within two months to give him absolute dictatorial powers, no parliament, no nothing. That's just the first two months, folks. My concerns about electronic voting machines and the Patriot Act in the U.S., abusive as they can be, come nowhere near comparing to the horrors of Hitler's rule.

Comparisons of current events, of any kind, to the Third Reich, are usually very uninformed and very unhelpful, and utterly hyperbolic, at least.

Critics of today's Republican politics might better turn to 1920s America. Critics of today's anarchists might better turn to 1920s ... anarchists in America, some of whom were America's worst terrorists (e.g., they killed 30+ on Wall Street in 1920).

Jeff Vanke
Ph.D., European History

I think Terri's comparison to Kristallnacht is valid.
Kristallnacht was on a much larger scale, but its essence was
angry mobs destroying property at night, especially breaking glass.
All of these elements were present in the attack on Republican headquarters.
Terri simply said that the attack in Raleigh reminded her of Kristallnacht, period.

I think Terri's critics' focus on Kristallnacht is phony.
I think what was upsetting to her angry critics was that the rest of her letter seemed sympathetic to Republicans.

If people are concerned with excessive Nazi era comparisons, I suggest they condemn Peter Eichenberger's article in the current Independent
"Our last hope against the brown shirts? Call a lawyer". In this he states that local police forces are now the Gestapo. This is insulting to all who were harmed by the Gestapo, and an absurd insult to the police. Peter's article is an extreme and far fetched use of the Nazi analogy.
I won't hold my breath waiting for attacks similar to those made on Terri.

Are we being asked to believe that an attack on a party headquarters
on Election Night has nothing to do with partisan politics? This was just a coincidence?
And what could be more intimidating to a party's voters than the sacking of its headquarters by a violent mob?

Ruby, you erroneously put words in Terri's mouth. And you heap more insults on Terri after she has suffered the most horrible verbal attack on a local citizen I have ever seen!

I am shocked at Ruby's failure to strongly reprove Duncan Murrell for his vicious attack on Terri. Duncan Murrell's insults to my wife amount to a character assassination.
He didn't make arguments, he unleashed a stream of vitriolic insults.
Duncan's post is your idea of "playing nice"?

Terri may not be stifled, but a lot of conservative and moderate people in this area are. Many people thank her for daring to express non-conformist views which they share. Many people are reluctant to express these views because they fear being subjected to attacks like Terri has suffered.

Who stole what election when?

I'm with Chilton -- let's turn the vitriol dial down, please. And indulging in conspiracy theories is hardly a means of furthering serious and constructive conversation.

I did not see the Republican HQ after the incident, but I doubt that it was "sacked" as Bob suggests.

I'm not sure that NAZI analogies (of any sort) are any more over-reaching than comparing municipal annexation to European colonialism. I mean what raw material do we force the Highlands to export to Carrboro? And we hardly force them to buy only Carrboro products - indeed they say they don't shop here.

I'm an anarchist! All right!

Bob, I'm sorry, really, if Terri was hurt by other comments on this thread; I even wondered if they were serious. But within the past week, she stated on another thread that she "loath[ed]" people with certain points of view. That wasn't very helpful, either.

Mark Ch., that's an interesting point you make. I'll stand by my historical comparisons of territorial economic exploitation of the unwilling, though.

Oh the history. Did anyone notice the anniversary of Kristallnacht this past Nov. 9? It's also the anniversary of Hitler's 1923 arrest, after his failed putsch/coup attempt. It's also the anniversary of the fall of Wilhelm II in 1918, in favor of a Republic. It's also the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. Big day for Germany. Sorry, couldn't help myself with the German history, and maybe a little dusty history could help right now.

This thread was disgusting but revealing about the nature of the "open-mindedness" and "tolerance" we enjoy in this community.

I apologize for the tone of my post, but not its substance. I'm also sorry that the substance wasn't obvious. I was very angry.

The idea that some anarchic vandals making a failed attack on the Republican HQ in Raleigh is akin to the Goebbels-instigated pogrom is so far off that it amounts to a lie, and it's the lies -- the uses to which history has been twisted and bent to suit one's politics -- that gets me angry.

Republicans had just won an election. Republicans -- at least on the national stage -- had just grown in power. Jews in Austria and Germany in 1939 had not just won an election. They did not hold power of any sort, and very tenuously held onto any official status after the 1935 Nuremberg laws. If the analogy to Kristallnacht were to hold, it would have been Republican thugs attacking Democratic headquarters and rounding up everyone who doesn't golf.

I know this is a favorite topic, the oppression of the Republican minority in Chapel Hill, and I'm willing to listen to it. I think one might want to consider that "oppression" might be over-stated, and that if it comes from anything it comes from the simple fact that, at least in the Chapel Hill enclave, there aren't a lot of Republicans. There are plenty of Republicans elsewhere, as the facts have shown.

I think my anger also illustrates another, related truism: that invocation of the Nazis and the Holocaust by analogy are bound to torque someone off to the point of unrestrained anger. I believe that Kristallnacht was an incomparable event in our human history, resistant to analogy, and therefore any analogy was bound to raise my hackles. But an analogy that turned the facts of Kristallnacht on their head: that an isolated attack on the ruling party by wayward teenagers with no politics at all was the equivalent of a state-instigated pogrom that would (the use of the words "slippery slope" make this extension of the analogy impossible to miss) inevitably lead to genocide -- that's just not a possible analogy. It defies reason, no matter how much one has "agonized" over the Holocaust. Agonizing comes naturally; understanding is what's necessary, as much as one can understand one of the singularly evil events of human history.

I just went outside to look at the plants I put in the ground yesterday, and to think about what I've done, and I want to say this to Ms. Tyson: I'm very sorry that I was mean to you, and that I might have made you feel bad. I could have said what I had to say without reference to you personally, and I should have. I should have taken Mark Chilton's 100 breaths.

For anyone else reading this, it should be noted that I don't know Ms. Tyson, have never met her, and know nothing about her. Thus, my assessment of her character is not based on anything other than my own angry constructions of it, and so they're worthless. If it made her feel terrible, they're worse than worthless.

As with all apologies, this one should be taken with a grain of salt. I meant what I said at the time, and my own character has not changed since then. I only wish I had taken the time to decide what I really meant to say, to suss out what was really bothering me, and not fall back on the easy ad hominem attack. That's what civilized people do, I suppose.

Jeff,

I said on the Carrboro Annexation thread that "I loathe those who criticize him (Mayor Nelson) and/or the town on values." I stand by that statement. I do not believe your value that art should be politically neutral should take precedence over my value that art is communication and that patriotic symbols can be challenged. You could still make your argument without the subjective 'values' term. When I see the 'values' term, I read it as the writer placing his/her particular POV above that of anyone elses.

I realized yesterday that I hadn't been signing my last name--a remnant from the time when our email addresses were posted. Sorry for the confusion.

Terri Buckner

At a time of mounting anti-semitism in much of the world and when there is a cottage industry in holocaust denial, trivializing the holocaust as Terri T has done is indefensible.

Among the favored methods of holocaust deniers is minimization. Thus, one web site tells us that "a maximum of only one and a half million Jews could be numbered as casualties." Others come up with even lower figures. The trivialization and denial of genocide and its precursors helps sets the stage for future atrocities. That is why Duncan is correct to object in strong terms to this abuse of historical analogy.

The fact that Terri is herself a Jew does not, as she suggests, absolve her from understanding the dangers inherent in the kind of trivialization she herself promotes. Rather, it gives her a heightened responsibility for understanding her own history and for challenging those who would abuse it.

The first two times I posted to this site, I signed my name Donna B. When I realized there was another Donna B., I decided to be brave and sign my name. My name is Donna Bozarth, I am a real person.

And I am not an anarchist as I said in my previous post. ("anarchy - 1. the complete absence of government 2. political disorder and violence; lawlessness. anarchist - 1. a person who believes in or advocates anarchism"). That was just a reaction to Mark (C's) post ("Actually, politically, Anarchists are basically that place where left meets right on the political wheel"), an implication, I suppose, that anarchists and unaffiliated voters are kissing cousins.

My comment re: vandals, Democrats and Nazis was meant to demonstrate how easily it is to infer ridiculous notions from what people write. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

"Oh, I get it. Using Nazi analogies is cool in some cases but not in others. Hmmm".

What about Jeff's comment? While perusing this site, I ran across a thread containing a spirited discussion about freedom of expression as it relates to the Carrboro flag flap. (I can't remember what thread it was on, perhaps the Carrboro annexation?).

Nice save, Duncan.

Donna--I got your joke. I had exactly the same reaction to Mark C's definition of anarchism (where the left meets the right.) Who knew we were so counter-cultural? Does my new ID as an anarchist give me more "street cred?"

As a serious believer in the rule of law I doubt I'd make a very good anarchist. I, too, found the Naziamerican flag flap interesting...it DOES seem that it's "ok" to make hyperbolic statements comparing aspects of the US to Nazi Germany if one is left-leaning--but not if one is right-leaning. Anyone want to address this? Perhaps the Nazimerican flag was allowed it's hyperbolic satement because it was "art."

We seem to have strayed OT--but it's an interesting (and, I think, important) straying.

If you want local (though it's STATE local) content--you'd be hard pressed to beat WUNC's "The State of Things." Broadcast at noon on UNC M-F... and it repeats in the evening (at 8?)

WUNC. Sorry--missed the "W". Touch typing is not all it's cracked up to be!

Terri B. & Terri T. (& Bob), Sorry for confusing you. Jeff

Since I started this thread to initiate discussion about the threatening demise of a local news focus on WCHL, I might as well mention the station again.

Ms. Tyson's letter is read today as a commentary on Chapel Hill Speaks Out (the successor to the Commentators).

I guess I was the only one listening.

Mark K.
(The "K" is for Kleinschmidt)

No, others do listen. I heard Mrs. Tyson's commentary and still believe that if people desire to attack her for why some events should or should not remind her of something, great. There appears, however, to be more than a few who are willing to read a great deal into her statement. A better approach than the one seen here might have been to ask HER to explain her statement, then criticize that if one desires.

I do, however, appreciate Mr. Murrell's "apology," qualified though it was.

PS: I think I heard Ron Stutts say, "Chapel Hill - Carrboro Speaks Out."

One of the reasons I originally allowed Duncan's comment to remain is that he signed his name to it. This goes a long way toward accountability as this thread and his apology shows. In fact, we have learned a few lessons about identity in the last few days. Let's take this as a reminder about the importance of authenticity, and encourage real, full names for commenters.

Having thought about this and listened to what many of you have had to say, I have faced the fact that Duncan's post most decidedly did not "play nice." I have removed the content of his letter. I also want to apologize for not taking this step sooner. I am very aware of how political attacks in this small town can have a very personal impact, so I am sorry for any pain caused to Terri Tyson as a result of my inaction.

This episode really reinforces my belief in the collective power of the community of people participating in this website. You demonstrated that many individual voices are more powerful than one. Even if I hadn't removed Duncan's comment, you would clearly have shown that the community rejected what he said. And you didn't need a moderator to do that!

While I agree with Ruby, Duncan and others who have criticized Duncan's tone, I want to be sure we do not throw out the message with the messenger. After all, we can assume that pretty much everyone who read Duncan's original post has seen or will see his apology. On the other hand, thousands of people have read or heard Tyson's analogy who do not have the "benefit" of our debate. Duncan's criticism remains valid (much as Howard Dean's platform still resonated for many even after his infamous "scream").

Did some research and found out something I didn't know. The artist who painted the Nazi/American flag is also Jewish.

(http://www.indyweek.com/durham/2003-07-23/ae3.html)

"The fact that Terri is herself a Jew does not, as she suggests, absolve her from understanding the dangers inherent in the kind of trivialization she herself promotes. Rather, it gives her a heightened responsibility for understanding her own history and for challenging those who would abuse it."

Does this also apply to Jewish political artists, Dan?

I believe that if Terri Tyson considers her letters to the editor and commentaries to be works of art, she needs to convey that up front. Such a stance would open up interesting new avenues for the analysis and critique of her oeuvre.

Dan, I agree. I still think everything I said above about Terri's statments. Not only is her analogy extreme and inappropriate, I really think she just gets it plain wrong to compare a handful of radical vandals throwing stones to a campaign of murder and annihilation led by the national government.

But anyway, what IS the deal at WCHL?