This hurts me. I have good friends at Whole Foods. But now I have another reason not to shop there.
If you are a progressive and you are shopping at Whole Foods, you are feeding a high-priced machine that violates many of your personal principles. Please join me in shopping elsewhere. And just so you know what soapbox your hard-earned dollars are funding, consider this from Whole Foods CEO John Mackey in the Wall Street Journal.
The last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system. Instead, we should be trying to achieve reforms by moving in the opposite direction—toward less government control and more individual empowerment. :: Health care is a service that we all need, but just like food and shelter it is best provided through voluntary and mutually beneficial market exchanges. A careful reading of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution will not reveal any intrinsic right to health care, food or shelter. That’s because there isn’t any. This “right” has never existed in America.A careful reading of both documents will not reveal any intrinsic right to education either. I'm guessing Mr. Mackey would like to do away with public schools, too. Stop shopping at Whole Foods. Period. And make sure they know why. Mr. Mackey is certainly entitled to his opinion. And you're entitled to take your business elsewhere.
Comments
Dining Room Table
Why are you guys so Passive Aggressive? Just curious. My call is that you are framing the debate to fit your narrow (Webster's) definition. So please go on. You really think that intimidation is going to work?Keep it up and see what happens.Studies are not audits. Sorry, you can define audit, but perhaps you need to look at what study means in scientific terms. As it stands, when you can define study, then you can come back to the conversation. Since I have a life, I am not going to waste my time with circular arguments based on false premises.So since I don't accept your defining study as audit (since they are not the same), I would prefer you quit while you're ahead. But if you must go on, please do.But don't do it as a passive aggressive person. And don't act like you can change the meaning of words to fit what you believe.
The Meaning of Words
"And don't act like you can change the meaning of words to fit what you believe"I haven't changed the meaning of words, I copied and pasted the meaning of audit from Webster's Online. Here is what Webster's has to say about study;
1 : a state of contemplation : reverie2 a : application of the mental faculties to the acquisition of knowledge <years of study> b : such application in a particular field or to a specific subject <the studyof Latin> c : careful or extended consideration <the proposal is under study> d (1) : a careful examination or analysis of a phenomenon, development, or question(2) : the published report of such a study3 : a building or room devoted to study or literary pursuits4 : purpose, intent <it has been the study of my life to avoid those weaknesses — Jane Austen>5 a : a branch or department of learning : subject —often used in plural <American studies> b : the activity or work of a student <returning to her studies after vacation> c : an object of study or deliberation <every gesture a careful study — Marcia Davenport> d : something attracting close attention or examination6 : a person who learns or memorizes something (as a part in a play) —usually used with a qualifying adjective <he's a quick study>7 : a literary or artistic production intended as a preliminary outline, an experimental interpretation, or an exploratory analysis of specific features or characteristics8 : a musical composition for the practice of a point of technique Let's go with 2 a : application of the mental faculties to the acquisition of knowledge <years of study> b : such application in a particular field or to a specific subject <the studyof Latin> c : careful or extended consideration <the proposal is under study> d (1) : a careful examination or analysis of a phenomenon, development, or question(2) : the published report of such a study. If you'd prefer a different one please offer it up. In order to study, one has to have data to study, it can not happen in a vacuum. My point is simple, in order to have the data to conduct the study an audit is a must, or can you offer a methodology that would magically hallucinate this information from thin air? I repeat, HR 3200 sec 113 is titled "Studies" pg. 21-22 line (C) states the bill mandates a study of "The financial solvency and capital reserve levels of employers that self-insure. Line (D) mandates a study to determine "The risk of self-insured employers not being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent" Now how is the government going to complete these studies unless they conduct a formal examination of an organization's accounts or financial situation or they do a methodical examination and review and they can only complete these tasks using real numbers, so tell me how they can complete the mandated study unless they have audited numbers? Are they going to just make a guess or just make up the numbers like they do with inflation and unemployment numbers?
Let's See If This Will Help
Let's say the government mandates that the Presidential Cook bake a peach cobbler, but doesn't specifically say that the cook should buy some peaches, does that mean that there are no peaches in the kitchen's future or does it imply that there's going to be some peach purchasing necessary? Mandating a study means get the information necessary to do the study and then gett'er done.
The most basic right
Mackey wrote what a lot of conservatives seem to think: "A careful reading of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution will not reveal any intrinsic right to health care, food or shelter. That’s because there isn’t any. This “right” has never existed in America."It hasn't? I can't think of a more basic right than survival. There's no "life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness" without health. If the government has no Constitutional obligation to protect the health of its citizens, then why do we need any national defense? Or perhaps we should privatize all of the armed services, too? Perhaps Blackwater and United Health should merge. Profit made on the life or death of others is such a perversion of the idea of a "market."
Excellent comment
Suffering and death are apparently good business.
Mackey is a bit ignorant
The US is a signator of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and therefore that right has existed here since 1948. To whit, Article 25(1):Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health
and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing,
housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right
to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability,
widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond
his control.
We All Have A Right To Health
We have a right to health, but not to healthcare. We have a right to eat, but not to be fed. We have a right to happiness, but not to be given all we think we need in order to make us happy. We have a right to air, but we are responsible for breathing. The big problem with a "right to healthcare" is how would the right to healthcare be paid. In the first place we as a nation are broke to the tune of $11 trillion. Even more important however is even if we could afford it, what gives me the right to somebody's hard earned funds to pay for my healthcare? Does that person not have a right to his/her private property in the form of those funds? If you or I can not or will not work and earn our way and pay for goods and services we desire or need, why would that trump another person desire to keep or spend their money as they see fit? Believe me, if I get sick and I'm living paycheck to paycheck then I'll give up cable TV to pay for my health.Let's say that we were without any form of healthcare for 90 days what would happen in this country? How many more people would die than would have died anyway? Hundred? Several hundred? Thousand? Several thousand? Tens of thousands? Take your pick. Now, let's say that we were without any form of food or water for 90 days. Guess what, we're all dead.So why isn't food a right? It was in Russia for a while and how'd that work out?
Why Not A Right To Healthcare?
Even though I have no children I pay taxes to support the local schools. I have no choice but nevertheless I believe it is the right thing to do. Why? Because schools provide education for the children and an educated community is a better, stronger community. And better, stronger communities make for a better and stronger nation. And in spite of its problems I still believe we live in the best nation on earth.In a similar fashion, a healthy populace makes for better and stronger communities and a better and stronger nation. I don't know enough yet to say what kind of plan should be enacted but I do believe that we need to insure that everyone has access to good healthcare. Undoubtedly, in whatever plan we end up with some people will pay what they consider to be more than their 'fair share' and other people will pay less. The situation reminds me of a question a priest asked me and my wife before we got married: "how much of this marriage are you responsible for?" If you thought the correct answer was 50% - you lose. It is obviously 100%. Once you start keeping score you might as well quit because your heart isn't in it. In this nation of opportunity there will always be those who are more fortunate than others and are able to gve more. If we're going to bring out the scorecards for healthcare, why not do it for education and everything else. It really won't matter because it will indicate that this nation no longer believes in extending a helping hand to those less fortunate and that is, I believe, the beginning of our downfall.It is the same for healthcare as for education. We cannot continue to succeed as a nation if more and more people are unable to access the care necessary to maintain a reasonable level of health.My rant for the day.
dueling quotes
George C. wrote: "In this nation of opportunity there will always be those who are more fortunate than others and are able to give more."This basic tenet of the Left is mathematically unsound. Let me give you a real example ... Me. If I was to liquidate every posession I have, and all the money I make, and also what I might make for the rest of my career, all at once tomorrow ... I'd have enough cash to distribute about 9 cents to every other US citizen.Nine cents ... for a life's work. And I'd then be penniless myself, a ward of the State afterwards. How many people like me would have to be "liquidated" in order to pay for some kind of undefined well-being level for some undefined group of others? George, there aren't enough "rich" people (whatever "rich" means) to take from to support the desires of everybody else. You might think there are, indeed you may always have wanted to believe this -- but, it's just not so. And with the opening of that shibboleth comes understanding of the Right. We're not mean. Just realistic.I'm convinced that people of the Left are the most sweet-natured and good hearted folk ever, but they are just bad at math. This great country is in debt in an amount nearly equal to its annual GDP. In more plain language, that means that we could only pay off our collective debt if 100% of the work done by 100% of everybody in the country, for a year, was 100% confiscated. 100%. We are now adding to the existing debt at a geometric pace. We will, literally, soon never be able to settle this debt.I'll leave you with this dueling quote from Sir Alex Fraser Tyler (1747-1813)"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
A Very Good and Thoughtful Post George C
I agree with the reasoning behind your support for good healthcare and for good schools. I especially agree that everyone should has a right to access to healthcare, my point goes to the method of that access. I don't know what you do for a living but if you produce a good or provide a service, should the government dictate that everyone should have a right to your productivity? How that productivity should be accomplished, ration who get how much and what you should get paid and then take a cut of the proceeds? I don't.I agree very much with your marriage point, I'm only shocked that you would use it to promote the sharing of healthcare cost. I understand it to mean that we all should accept 100% responsibility without anticipating that someone else will kick in the other half of my responsibility. If we all go about our lives accepting full (100%) responsibility for our part of the marriage then we don't need a government to point a gun at the head of our partners to get it done.Thank you for your rant, it's nice to have a debate rather than have to simply ignore the noise or be called names.
All 100 Percents Aren't Equal
BradyL,When I used the marriage analogy I was saying that each partner needed to be giving 100% all the time. But that doesn't mean each partner's contribution is always equal. There will be times when my wife's 100% is more than my 100%, and vice versa. And I think it's similar for healthcare. If I were to give 100% of what I can afford for healthcare and someone making minimum wage gives 100% of what they can afford the ammounts aren't going to be equal. But I don't think they have to be. I believe that it is only important that each party be giving what they can. Sure, this means to some that I'm subsidizing someone but I don't consider it subsidizing when both parties are giving 100% effort. It means that everyone does what they can when they can. I guess coaches call it teamwork. And to me that is what is going to be needed to succeed going forward.
Thanks For The Clarification
I could argue a few fine points in your analogue but that is not productive other than to maybe score a "gottcha" and I'm not interested in playing those games so I'll accept your analogue in the spirit you intended since your meaning is now clear to me.It's just that I have a problem with the state using force to take money from someone else to pay for my healthcare. (Please, before anybody flames me that this is a Federal program and not a State program, I know that, I mean the state in the classical sense which is to say government). I don't have to worry about the state taking an unfair amount of money from me, I would be an overall benefiter from these programs since I don't make a lot of money and only have healthcare because my wife has a great job with decent benefits, though we still have to pay a large premium to cover the family, bottom line is we would save money with the Obama plan but that would mean that some else would be carrying my load through the force of a gun and I'm not ok with that.
Challenge to Whole Foods gaining traction
From the Google Machine
Mackey's prescription
Mackey concludes his piece saying: "a diet consisting of foods that are plant-based, nutrient dense and low-fat will help prevent and often reverse most degenerative diseases that kill us and are
expensive to treat. We should be able to live largely disease-free lives until we are well into our
90s and even past 100 years of age."In other words, if everyone shopped at Whole Foods (carefully, avoiding, of course, the high-priced gourmet indulgences), there wouldn't be a great need for health care? Really? Few boycotts have ever had much lasting effect. And in this particularly combative debate over one of the most critical social issues we've ever faced, a boycott of Whole Foods would never change vigorously defended opinions. More likely, it would just invite the derision we're already seeing here. But I do think it's worth knowing just where the noise is coming from. And why.
Twitter petition
A friend has started a Twitter petition. To participate, be signed into Twitter and, either go to the petition site: http://act.ly/el and Tweet from there or Re-Tweet the following message:
Funny you mention that...
About three weeks ago, I tweeted...@jehb: Why I work at Weaver Street NOT Whole Foods: RT @tomphilpott Whole Foods CEO calls Obama health plan a "trojan horse" http://bit.ly/abXwU... which roused the reply...@wholefoods: @jehb Our current health care plan is a sustainable one that allows us to pay 100% of the premiums for our full-time team members @wholefoods: @jehb Haven't yet seen details of a proposed plan, but concerned abt the addtl costs that may negatively impact salary & benefit.At the time I felt a little bit sorry for them, having to defend from me drudging up some stupid off-the-cuff remark of their CEO in front of 1.1 million followers. But now that Mackey continues to crusade against progressive healthcare in America... well, let's just say I feel a little bit less guilty about calling him on it.
Not the first time but
This not the first time Mackey has said or done something stupid and probably not the last. Go ahead and call him on it but don't punish the employees.WF is known to be one of the better employers expecially in the grocery industry. I know several good people working there some who have been there since it was Wellsprings. Bringing down WF in Chapel Hill will not help them and will not stop Mackey.
If that's the standard
If that's the standard, then no one would ever take any action against anything. The Smithfield boycott caused many workers to suffer for many years, same with Mt. Olive. Good people work at Exxon convenience stores, yet many progressives continue to boycott that oil company. The same could be said for Wal-Mart. It's all a matter of degree.In my view, customers have an obligation to use their purchasing power for social change. If you shop at Whole Foods, your money is helping to build Mackey's soap box. And from that soap box, Mackey is a well-established advocate for many things progressives find offensive.
Try 3 Cups.
There is a difference
Smithfield treated their employees as less than human, not at all like Whole Foods. Therefore the same standard does not apply.There needs to be some sort of balance. If you think that Whole Foods is the devil then go ahead. But I can not get there just because Mackey is a jerk. Not everything is binary.
Maybe you can separate a company from its leadership
but I can't. And please don't put words in my mouth. I never said Whole Foods is the devil. I actually said that this was a difficult choice for me ... and that I finally came down on the side of not wanting to have my personal money used by the jerk to oppose something I believe in. I'm not screaming at a town hall meeting, I'm not killing adversaries in the dark of night, I'm simply not shopping there and am encouraging others to do the same. Sheesh.
Mr. Protzman doesn't want
Mr. Protzman doesn't want people putting words into his mouth but he has no problem putting words into other people's mouth like Mr. Mackey's mouth "I'm guessing Mr. Mackey would like to do away with public schools, too." This was stated by Mr. Protzman at the beginning of this blog. Nothing like a double standard is there?
There's a reason I said "I'm guessing."
You might have looked up the word yourself. But since you raised the subject, I felt compelled to test my assumptions. Mr. Mackey has this to say::
I'm sure it's more fun to criticize me than to bother to look into the matter for yourself. It took every bit of seven seconds to find Mackey's own words.
Systemic problems
"a diet consisting of foods that are plant-based, nutrient dense and
low-fat will help prevent and often reverse most degenerative diseases
that kill us and are expensive to treat. We should be able to live largely disease-free lives until we are well into our 90s and even past 100 years of age."I wonder if what he meant was that the health care issue offers one "cure" but doesn't address the root source--the average American lifestyle. I have no desire to defend the man, but I understand that point.Poor to no health care causes many problems and needs to be resolved. But the reasons behind needing more health care should also be addressed. We can pour a lot of money into providing all the healthcare people need, but if those people continue eating diets of all processed foods, don't exercise, don't use seatbelts, smoke, etc., we'll still have a critical shortage of adequate care; demand will continue to outstrip supply. This is a systemic problem that extends well beyond health care. Universal coverage is just one piece of the puzzle. Unfortunately, the public dialogue makes it sound like its either the ultimate solution or the end of the world.
Finally had a chance to read
Finally had a chance to read Mackey's editorial. I don't think he is opposing reform. He is opposing this particular reform, and it's timing. He also makes suggestions for reforms that he thinks are more viable. Isn't that the kind of dialogue we should be having around such a major change in our democracy?http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020425140457434217007286507...
yes
Isn't that the kind of dialogue we should be having around such a major change in our democracy? Yes. I don't agree with a lot of the suggestions Mackey is making either, however, we need to listen to opinions without attacking the person stating them. If we do not, we become as bad as the folks shouting down our representatives at town hall meeting.
Mackey tries damage control
http://www2.wholefoodsmarket.com/blogs/jmackey/2009/08/14/health-care-re...He does have one valid point. The Journal hyped the headline to make him look even crazier than he is. Beyond that, no dice.
Thanks for the link ...
... I have now had a chance to apprise myself of the situation accurately and without the selective editing I have seen.I agree strongly with the Whole Foods exec, and like many of the blog posters, will be turning more of my family's grocery business to Whole Foods even though it is perhaps the most inconvenient place in town for me to shop. They provide needed jobs, at good wages and with intelligently-crafted benefits packages. Their products are of high quality and the local store (after the recent expansion) is well lit and inviting.My family's monthly budget has several main line-items. #1 of course is taxes - that's the biggest expense we have - followed by housing, utilities, then food. I don't get much value from the taxes, and housing and utilities costs are what they are, not much flexibility there. So, my food budget is really the most elastic and value-oriented major expense category. I'm glad to direct those dollars more wisely.
Boycott Whole Foods on Facebook
http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1190995373796,712 membersI see this groups membership is skyrocketing. Didn't know about it to a moment ago, but facebook has a section that lists groups "recently joined by your friends" and every time I've hit refresh the membership has been 2 or 3 or 10 people higher. ----- The group is up to 8,375 members now from the 6,712 number I posted earlier today. I just noticed Whole Foods also happens to be a sponsor of the 14th Annual Gay & Lesbian Film Festival going on in Durham right now. Is that just for show, or is that real progressiveness? http://festivals.carolinatheatre.org/ncglff/schedule/ I for one am kind of on the sidelines since I don't shop at Whole Foods any more ever since a trader joes opened up within walking distance of where I live (& I worked for the past 3 years in a Plaza that had a Food Lion so out of convenience I also frequented there).
Which of these suggestions do you find so offensive?
I still don't get this issue. Which of these issues, put forth in the WSJ opinion piece, do you find so offensive as to warrant a boycott that has the potential to endanger the job security (and health care coverage) of many local citizens?
and individually owned health insurance have exactly the same tax
benefits.
paying insurance costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year.
Medicare is heading towards bankruptcy and move towards greater patient
empowerment and responsibility.
IRS tax forms to help the millions of people who have no insurance and
aren’t covered by Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP or any other government
program.
Some of these are great issues IMHO. Are you all saying there's some kind of conservative code embedded in 1 or more of these suggestions?
4, 5, 6, 8 are problems for me
The problem is not with his specific proposals, half of which I agree with (and which would be part of any reform that I've read too. The problem is that Mackey sees these as alternatives to any public plan.For the record, I oppose all of the emergign plans I've seen in development because they all fall miserably short of the single-payer option I prefer.
Choices
I agree--the proposals I'm seeing emerge are inadequate. They don't address the systemic problems described in this article.As to Mackey--how do we arrive at a plan that the majority can live with (no pun intended) if we will not listen and try to understand those, like Mackey, who have different opinions? I'm really struggling to see the difference in intent between this boycott and those who are disrupting the town hall meetings (obvious difference in style). Both efforts are using pressure tactics to push their point of view rather than cultivating an environment of negotiation. This is exactly what happened in 1994 and why we've had to live with a broken health care system for 14 years. There are some facts and options everyone seems to agree on, as illustrated in your admission. But the rhetoric is still creating an atmosphere of conflict rather than collaboration. It's a shame. We need this problem solved.
The difference
"I'm really struggling to see the difference in intent between this boycott and those who are disrupting the town hall meetings (obvious difference in style)" The intent isn't different. The intent is to shape the health care reform debate. But the difference in style is exactly what is most relevant. When a person decides not to shop at Whole Foods, b/c money is speech and all that, then they do so in a way that does not silence other opinions. When you yell & shout at a public forum so that no one but you & your side gets to have a conversation & reasoned debate with an elected official who represents everyone present, then you do silence others opinions. So while there may not be much difference in intent, there is a significant difference as a result of the style.
#2 is trouble
because all the proposals to solve this so far have meant taxing employer-provided benefits, not making individual (and very small business) deductible.
Just curious . . .
. . about your passion for the single-payer option. There's pretty clear evidence that the government-run or -supported business in this country is a complete losing proposition. Fannie and Freddie could barely be classifed as GSE's anymore, they're basically business lines of the Treasury Department. The USPS is losing money hand over fist, and their only solutions are to a) raise costs and b) layoff employees/close centers. Medicare and Social Security are well-documented fiscal train wrecks. Why on earth would you like the government to be the caretaker of people's health care?This is certainly not to acknowledge that there is a critical need to reform health care. It's merely more an attempt to point out that, in all likelihood, Washington (or Raleigh and other state capitals, and, probably fair to say, most cities, towns, and counties) have no business running a business.
thanks for playing
Fannie and Freddie failed miserably, but they were not run by the government. They were publicly traded corporations that had been chartered by congress. NOW they are government run BECAUSE the free market failed.Your complaint about the USPS seems to be that they are responding to their woes by raising revenues and cutting costs. How is that different from how Wall Street would do it?As for Social Security and Medicare, they are not businesses and never were intended to be businesses. They are social safety nets and both are wildly successful and popular programs. Also, I don't think anyone is advocating for government to run health care as a business. We already have folks who run health care as a business; that is the problem.
Actually
Fannie and Freddie are "government-sponsored enterprises" (GSE's), originally chartered by Congress, and subsequently allowed to issue stock as a source of capital funding. Fannie and Freddie (and Ginnie and Sallie, for that matter) set the guidelines that allow mortgages to be purchased through a secondary market, and are directly responsible for setting standards lower than they should be, thereby allowing lenders to lower their credit and underwriting standards. Numerous articles exist regarding the involvement in politicians (particularly Barney Frank) and federal agencies such as the Treasury Dept and HUD in the lowering of these standards.Re: Wall St. (or Main St., or any other st.) in the USPS conversation: Any business under challenging times would elect to pursue the same course, raise revenues and cut expenses. However, USPS operates at a loss, and has no shareholders, yet we as taxpayers get to continue to fund what is an unsustainable business.As far as Social Security and Medicare, I'm not sure how you would classify a government-health option as anything other as a safety net. And while Social Security and Medicare may be "wildly successful and popular", so was the excitement of the maiden voyage of the Titanic. Their success or popularity does nothing to change the unassailable fact that they are fiscal train-wrecks with finite funding available.So, again, there's several examples of government-run, -sponsored, or -chartered businesses/funds/ventures, each of which is, to different degrees, insolvent. WHY WOULD A GOVERMENT HEALTH CARE OPTION BE ANY DIFFERENT?
Actually..
The only reason Social Security may go negative is the baby boomer population bubble moving through the snake. There are many ways to solve that problem. Medicare is a bigger problem because 1) the same bubble, and 2) the extremely high rising costs of heath care due to the failure of our private for profit heath care delivery system even though Medicare is 10 times more efficient than private insurance.
Your fire department is unsustainable
Unless you feel like supporting it based upon real needs. It is amazing - and unsustainable - that some people will gauge eveything based upon a business model. Capitalism has it's place, but it's not a religion.
Not religion, but morality
Mark, I have no right to force you to pay for my ill health, especially under threat of law. That nice country estate you have, if you don't pay your new federal health care levy, could be seized and sold to pay for my hip replacement. Sound fair to you? This is why health care systems in other countries are going bankrupt. Socialized medicine cannot be made to work in practice, because it is immoral.I have researched the matter, stitched together my own observations with cogent examples from others, and here are eight thoughts on this subject to try and make my point.(1) When people say they want the government to supply them with some personal benefit, they're really just saying that they want someone other than themselves - one or more of their fellow citizens - to pay for it, so they don't have to. The government gets the vast majority of its money by taxing its citizens, so a "paid by the government" program is really a "paid under duress by other people" program. To look at your neighbor and say "I don't want to pay for my medical care - I want YOU to pay for it for me" is selfish, and immoral. The concept can only lose its innate immorality if I (by virture of the fact I'm paying for your health care) get to control your poor health choices. You smoke? Not on my dime, you don't. Put that salt shaker away! And no more elevator rides for you, either, chubby - the stairs get you there, too.(2) Insurance is a great idea. It's a way for people to voluntarily pool their resources so that large, unusual expenses that would be financially ruinous to an individual can be covered by the group. But the key is that this is voluntary, and that it should be used ONLY for catastrophic situations. Why did Blue Cross have to pay for some of the bill for my annual check-up last Monday? To force me into a dependency like this that I don't want to be in is coercive, and therefore immoral. Or -- like they do in Massachusetts, and in most places for automobiles ... EVERYbody has to pay in, at least something. Then they have skin in the game. Either everybody pays or it ain't fair. Can't have it both ways.(3) Wherever it's been tried, socialized medicine has resulted in lower-quality care than in today's American system. There's little reason to think socializing medicine wouldn't have the same effect here. Sick people from socialized-medicine countries regularly travel to the U.S., because they can't get the quality medical care they need in their own countries, or at least they can't get it in a timely fashion. Do a similar number of people travel from the U.S. to those countries because they can't find the care they need here? Of course not. Statistics are often cited that life expectancy in the U.S. is shorter (slightly) than in some particular socialized-medicine country, but that is misleading ... in a conversation about medical care, since the cited statistics include all causes of death, many of which are unrelated to medical care. For those with conditions that need medical care - the only ones of interest in a medical care debate - life expectancy is generally longer in the U.S. than elsewhere. Replacing the best medical care on Earth with a system that has already repeatedly been shown to be worse elsewhere would be immoral.(4) Very few government programs have a reputation for quality or efficiency. Government schools cost way more per student than many private schools (or home schooling) do, and generally provide far worse outcomes. The IRS, or a typical state's DMV - or Congress itself, for that matter - are no one's ideas of benevolent organizations, so, why would some 'health care agency' be expected to be any different? Is the DoD, with all its rigor and discipline, efficient? Historically, privatizing government services has saved money and increased quality of service, whereas forcing those services to be government-controlled has had the opposite effect. Historical precedent indicates that putting medical care under government control would raise the cost and decrease the quality of service, which is at least foolish, and, arguably, immoral.(5) Why is there no little green gecko selling discounted health insurance like he does with car insurance? The biggest problem with insurance currently is that it's already TOO socialized; there's not enough competition. I'm happy with my home, auto, and life insurance - for each of these, I looked at plans from a number of companies, and picked the balance of costs and benefits that I felt was right for me, from companies I was happy with. But I had no such choice with my medical insurance. Why? Because the perennially misguided socialist element of our society - unions and Democrats - pushed years ago to make health insurance a "job benefit." They took a free market concept and ruined it under the guise of being a tax haven. That means my health policy is chosen by my employer, instead of by me. That means I can't choose the costs and benefits that work best for me. That means that if I don't like the insurance company's policy or service, I'm still stuck with it. That means that the insurance company has little incentive to make me happy, because it's impractical for me to take my business elsewhere. That means that the self employed and unemployed often find insurance ridiculously expensive because they're not part of one of the employee "groups" that the insurance companies have been encouraged to cater to. That means that if I change jobs, I lose my insurance - a situation so ridiculous that now the Democrats are trying to enact a gigantic, costly, coercive, and byzantine set of regulations in a naive attempt to fix the problem they themselves created with their last set of costly, coercive, and byzantine regulations. Of course, I'm still paying just as much for the insurance as I would otherwise - my company simply extracts the cost of the insurance from the amount they're willing to pay for my services, and calls the remainder (after all the other government-mandated taxes and such) my salary. Insurance as a "job benefit" is no benefit to me at all. The right way to fix this problem is with more freedom and less regulation - keep the government away from my insurance and let me buy what I want. The wrong way to solve it is with less freedom and more regulation - yet that's what the socialists always push for. Is it not immoral to force people into a government plan they don't like, rather than allowing them to select a plan they do like from a free market? We all need to get a new gecko!(6) The "uninsured" in America largely fall into two groups: people who voluntarily choose not to spend the money for insurance, and the poor who are eligible for Medicaid but haven't yet signed up for it (since they need not do so until a medical need arises). There are also those who are not poor enough for Medicaid, but find medical insurance difficult to afford; narrowly-tailored adjustments to our current system to address their needs would be welcome. But tossing the whole system and replacing it with socialism under the pretense that it's somehow necessary to help those relatively few people - well, that's just dishonest, and immoral. Besides, in practical terms, people in the U.S aren't denied medical care, whether they can pay for it or not - walk into almost any hospital emergency room, and they'll treat you, regardless of your insurance or financial condition. I've gone to three very reputable local hospitals and seen prominently-posted literature explaining that, if you don't have insurance, you can talk to them and they'll willingly lower their prices substantially. That's probably not the best way to handle things, and the system could certainly use reform; but pretending that large numbers of people aren't able to get the medical care they need is dishonest ... and immoral.(7) I will spare you what I think of Barack Obama and the House/Senate leadership. You can guess my opinion, though, and I guarantee you it's worse than whatever you think up. [For the record: this Libertarian didn't like or vote for the previous tenants of 1600 Pennsylvavia Ave., either.] It appalls me to think that Obama - or any unelected hack appointed by him, given the tax cheats, and various other shady characters that he has chosen to surround himself with - would have any influence over decisions affecting my personal health care, or that of my family. I would suggest that Democrats imagine my hope, and their nightmare: that in four years a Republican they despise is elected president (surely such a thing has happened before, and may happen again), and he/she appoints his/her (to their way of thinking) nefarious band of cronies to the Health Care Board. Health Care Board ... you know, that 'death panel' that Sarah Palin made up? The Health Care Board that decides the budget can not afford your Gleevec. Yes, that Health Care Board ... the Government's final-say equivalent to the people that do the same thing now at Blue Cross. Will the Left really be glad then that they have signed over control of their health care to the new administration? Or will they decide then that it's suddenly time to campaign for health care re-privatization? I know you don't trust the greedy corporation blahblah profiteering blahblah overpaid executives blahblah insurance companies; fine. Make them cover pre-existing conditions in return for being able to compete across state lines. Fair? Forcing people to accept control over their health care from people they don't trust is immoral, regardless of who it is that you yourself don't trust.(8) Many fostering the idea of socialized medicine have come to cite charity as being a moral imperative and therefore something the government (usually, the Federal government) should adopt as policy. But this is disingenuous double-speak at best. When person “A” gives money or other assistance to person “B”, who is in need, that’s charity. But when person “C” takes money from “A” by force, and then gives it to “B”, that’s just simple theft. There’s no charity involved: not on the part of “A”, because the money was taken by force, and certainly not on the part of “C”, since it wasn’t their money. In socialized medicine, the government is “C” – not a moral position to be in. Why do Democrats want to be “C”, using other people’s money, rather than “A”, using their own? Oh, and before you jump to the the "hey, lookie, here's another 'taxation is theft' wingnut" position and dismiss me out of hand ... think about this: What's the difference between "promoting the general welfare" and "promoting your personal welfare" ? I'll tell you, the difference is, I am a lazy so-and-so and would dealrly love to be able to quit working and have you pay for my personal welfare which I will conveniently convince you is in your best interest, so I don't steal your car. What happens when the number of people that think that exceeds the number of payees? Are we there yet? Did Atlas Shrug? Extortion doesn't just happen on The Sopranos.Mark, I've tried to make useful suggestions interspersed with my critique. I am in strong support for reforms that actually solve the looming financial crisis that underpins these discussions. Everybody has to give some ... for example ... the Left will need to trade tort reform away (ooh, no more John Edwardses), in exchange for the AMA agreeing to lift the de-facto caps on the number of medical students. Wow, more doctors! Supply and demand! See how that works? Discussions like these are important, and useful, and should be conducted in a rational way, with due deference to existing constructs ... including that pesky 10th Amendment to the Constitution. The truth is that many people now depend on the Federal Government to pay for their health care expenses; that same Government has made promises to people that it cannot keep, so, the rest of us have to pony up the coin to make good. OK, that horse has left the barn. But it's immoral for us to lie collectively as we have done so far, and extend this proven inability to pay for those now on the dole ... to everybody else as well. Two wrongs don't make a right. It's immoral.
Guess being a Republican isn't cool anymore
Never has someone so ill-informed written something so long. 1. Not all disease is from poor practices.What did my friend who died of ALS do to deserve that?2. Not sure there is a point here.3. We are 38. France is 1. It is socialized and it is better. You clearly are using unreliable sources.4. Do you just make this stuff up? Private school is about $12,000 per year. And without them, we would have a permanent underclass. They do a great job compared to nothing.5. CAR INSURANCE IS HEAVILY REGULATED. Health Insurance is not. That's why.6. Wrong. Most are the working poor. Is being poor a crime?7. You don't like Barack Obama and your point is?8. Arguing that people without insurance are lazy. Nice thought, but wrong. Once again, the WORKING POOR are the ones who suffer most. If you are unemployed, you can usually get Medicaid.Your morality is self-centered and self-serving and not mine.
You may have missed early parts of the debate
Please read this 17 year old New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/04/us/plan-to-ration-health-care-is-rejected-by-government.htmlIt seems like your biggest complaint with the existing system is having to fight with insurance companies. Yep, it stinks ... Been there; done that. Just last year I got stuck with 4-figures of bills that they somehow decided not to cover. Trying to get this right was like arguing with a duck. And this wasn't the first time either. Although in the past I've occasionally won the debate, this recent time I eventually gave up.Sadly, however, I've been through the same thing with the Government. It took me (and a host of many others, plus big $$$ lobbyists) seven years to correct a Federal law that unintentionally destroyed the lives of thousands. http://www.reformamt.org/stories.php So, having been through both experiences, I'll take the insurance companies, any day. They may be bad, but, our Government is truly evil incarnate. They have the court-approved right to force you to pre-pay estimates of future tax owed, and to issue you an I.O.U. credit. Bet you didn't know that.I am also humbled that you would pledge your worldly goods and your future income, and that of your children, so that I might have 'free' health care, even if I choose to stop contributing myself. You are a better and more generous person than I am or will ever be.
You have your talking points memorized
You are right about that. I am a much more intellectually honest person than you. I also, will not try to call blatant self-interest a moral argument. Why do you guys always get personal when you know you are losing your argument. You have a theory that fails at every test. If the world ran in your ideal, there would be no roads, schools, trash pickup or Internet.Thank you for realizing the obvious. I am glad that I can believe in the good of people and not have to live the tired, bankrupt life of someone who thinks everyone is out to get them. You never addressed my main complaints, which shows your arguments have holes. Prove to me what my friend's wife did to DESERVE to die from cancer. Prove to me how my very hard-working friend who died of ALS (a genetic condition) brought that on himself. Prove to me how Cerebral Palsy is the result of a fetuses laziness. When you can prove to me that all illness is the result of poor choices, then you can bring back your lazy and lifestyle argument. Since when is helping your fellow man a bad thing?
Civil discussion
Inventor61 and I do not share the same perspectives on health care or it's reform, but I've always found him to be very intellectually honest. Disagreeing or having a different point of view doesn't make someone blatantly self-interested either. We pay for those who don't have health insurance one way or the other. To my way of thinking, it will cost of us all less if we acknowledge that reality and pay up front rather than waiting until they have a health crisis. A few years ago I was on an organization's personnel committee when the contract for health insurance came up for renewal. The contract price was truly outrageous. It would have been much cheaper for the organization to pay individual employees a fixed amount to purchase their own contracts. But that would have put a number of retirees (who paid for their own premiums) and those who had taken disability without coverage due to pre-existing conditions. So the organization paid the higher price and passed the cost onto their customers. UNC Healthcare passes on the cost of all those who have no insurance to the rest of us. So we either go elsewhere or we pay the higher cost for the convenience.
Let's do an experiment
Evil incarnate vs. the wise corporate profit- seekers.Public health care option vs. their system.No cheating - like strong-arming a deal to prevent the government (socialist evil incarnate) from purchasing drugs cheaper in the free market. Let's stand back and watch the insurance companies crush a public plan in the "free market". The insurance companies should be licking their chops at the prospect of proving what they are so sure of. What are they whining about? Come on insurance companies - step up and prove it - against a system widely derided by them as having no hope for success. Why not shoot these fish in a barrel and we can all then agree that their system is the best? Until they stop wimping out against what they consider vastly inferior competition, I don't find their claims to be credible. I can be persuaded. Let the games begin.
Perfect Response
Thank you. When I get attacked personally, I tend to lose my ability to come up with reasonable alternatives.I have had a little too much condesending behavior lately masquerading as legitimate debate and I am not taking it lying down anymore.Thanks for bringing this back to the reality - what are the Insurance companies so afraid of?
Socialized medicine
A New York Times article from May defines socialized medicine as a "health system in which the government owns and operates both the financing of health care and its delivery." "Social health insurance, on the other hand, refers to systems
in which individuals transfer their financial risk of medical bills to
a risk pool to which, as individuals, they contribute taxes or premiums
based primarily on ability to pay, rather than on how healthy or sick they are."Can we all agree that no one here or in the Oval Office has promoted the concept of socialized medicine? The question being debated in Congress is how we ensure that everyone has access to affordable health care, "affordable" being the operative word. From what I have seen and read the majority of support goes to a single-payer option for health insurance. Single-payer could be managed by the government or it could be managed by a private entity. It would, however, be paid for through taxes.Using the term "socialized medicine" in this discussion is a red herring. It's sure to draw an emotional response from those who support the single-payer otpion and end any possibility of continued civility.
Government vs private
Health care--the well being of human beings--should not be treated as a commodity. The private companies have proven, over and over again, that they don't care about the well being of human beings. They care about making money. The administrative costs on private health insurance have gone up 3000% since 1970 while physician pay has gone up 5%. Pharmaceutical
companies rake in about twice the profits of the average Fortune 500
company. The private insurance companies aren't taking any risks, the basis for insurance. They charge us to guarantee themselves no risk. As personal business decisions,it makes no sense at all to continue with private companies. In addition to their ridiculously high premiums that frequently yield very little payback when the service is used (and force providers to add more of their own administrative staff to deal with the paperwork), we also pay rates set to cover the uninsured and those who have no access to preventive services. We either pay to keep people healthy, or we pay more to resolve their health problems. There is no gamble here for us--it's a sure thing that we pay one way or the other. Continuing with private companies makes no sense at all.
You know, about a 2 years
You know, about a 2 years ago, we had a 2nd level ultrasound during our 2nd pregnancy at UNC Hospitals. The technician saw us for about 15 minutes, and the doctor came and consulted with us for THREE minutes. Later, we rec'd the bill, that was paid by our insurance, that detailed the cost of the service as $475. For those that struggle to do math, that equates to roughly $1584 / hour. Need any more ideas why insurance costs are high? (Oh, and, of course, we sat in the waiting room for almost an hour past our "appointment" time -- certainly, no one is considered about the lost productivity for myself and my wife.)As I've said before, healthcare reform is necessary. However, everyone who thinks that it is solely the fault of the big bad evil insurance companies needs to pull their head out of the sand. But that's not my issue. My issue is the government considering getting into a business that a) they have no business getting into (i.e. no expertise) and b) when unassailable evidence exists that the federal government has been unable to effectively manage the fiscal health of any of their "business lines".
Costly and Inefficient
Chris:Thank you for making the point about the current system being costly and inefficient. I know we have all experienced long waits for care, high costs and the indignity of having to sit in a waiting room. It is sad just how bad and inefficient our current system is. As for the governments business lines failing: it's hard to argue with Medicare working reasonably well or the fact that Social Security, while always in trouble, still manages to be a reasonable safety net. If it wasn't we wouldn't have seniors screaming to "Keep the Government out of my Medicare."The issue is access. You have insurance. What do you suggest the 47 million people who do not do? It's hard to listen to your complaints about the current system, when you have coverage (even thought it has problems) and feel sorry for you, when there are people right now who will not even be allowed to make an appointment.For you it is a fiscal issue, for them it is a life or death issue. I am sure they wish they had your problems.
Simply untrue
Medicare which is actually public and private (medigap) is managed better than the private insurance. (one item is they don't pay 30 million/year to a CEO), medicare accepts all comers once they reach 65 (not a low cost group. They can not cherry pick and there is no such thing as a pre-existing condition. And my doctor who worries about reimbursement rates does say Medicare reimburses quicker and with less hassle than the private insurers. About 92 to 98% of every Medicare dollar goes to actually delivering heath care while only 80% of every private insurance premium dollar goes to health care delivery. They are extremely profitable which is there only priority. However, you are right that the private insurance industry is not the only problem. The basic way we deliver health care is fee for service and the pushing of product. That works well for mp3 players but not for heath care. There are great models in the Mayo Clinic and Cleavland Clinic which deliver high quality care at 1/2 the cost. I have not seen anything in any measure that changes our current paradigm and really brings down cost. Real reform with cost reductions means less revenue and less profits. Revenue and profit drive our current system and it all works against our health and of course against real reform.The World Health Organization rates the USA at number 37 right behind Costa Rica and just in front of Slovenia. We spent 3 years in France which is rated number one and is combined public/private. We had our choice of doctors, no waits and everything was quality. When our youngest daughter was away at a summer camp she fell off her horse and broke her elbow. When we got the call they had taken her to the hosipital and she was in the care of a gp, an orthopedist and a coordinator. The orthopedist said operating was not necessary and a 2nd opinion was called in that confirmed he diagnosis. After leaving the hospital she went to physical therapy. We were never asked how we were going to pay and we never received a bill. (It's not free. It is just paid through taxes and it is universal.) When we returned that same summer we took her to our own orthopedist. She confirmed that all was done extremely well. From the moment of conception to the last day of your life, whether you are autistic or have Alzheimers you are covered.It is not really a matter of public or private. Germany has the oldest universal health care around (rated #25) and is all private. But the insurance industry is strictly regulated to the point that gauging is not allowed and standards of care and coverage are mandated. At the moment the public option is the only item on the agenda that has a real chance of reducing costs. That is the real reason the insurance industry if fighting it tooth and nail while spreading lies and lies and more lies and spending millions upon millions to defeat it.
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