Big box on our doorstep

Ruby,

I don't have exact measurements but by eyeballing it on the map I'm guessing that the proposed development in Chatham County, just south of the Orange County line, is indeed about the same distance from downtown CH as Timberlyne. Unfortunately, I'd also guess that New Hope Commons, Patterson Place, and all of that additional development sprouting up at 15-501 and Mt. Moriah Road are also about the same distance from downtown CH. Since it seems that we had no say over those developments, why would Chatham County be any different than Durham or Durham County? What do we have to offer them that they don't already have? They have a nice, wide super-highway of sorts to move people to this business development from Pittsboro, etc.

What argument would you make to Chatham County commissioners and residents that might convince them that CH residents should have a say in this matter? I'm not arguing against the idea but unless you have a regional planning body I don't see any reason for municipalities to listen to citizens outside their jurisdictions.

George you took the words right out of my mouth. We have been developed all around by folks who want to be close to this consumer market. We were actually pleased to 'force' the developers to move New Hope Commons out of our county a few hundreds yards down the road, we haven't said anything about the AICPA building, no comment on the Home Depot shopping center, Target and Sam's Club went up without any comment from Orange County......

I think we will be politely told to mind our own business by our neighbor to the south. And we might do the same if they tried to weigh in on our development policies.

George and Anita took the words right off my keyboard...

This is our business WHY? Sure, sure, we are all part of the mothership that is earth...but if I were Chatham County I'd quote Glinda the Good--

"Begone, you have no power here!"

"We clearly have no legal authority over this project, just as we had none over the entire Southpoint mega-complex, and won't have any over Carolina North (OK, maybe)"

Why can't we simply kill Carolina North through zoning or something? Isn't that why we HAVE zoning laws? It is very frustrating.

While I can't say who in Chatham will tell us to politely mind our own business, my understanding from my many colleagues who live in Chatham County is that this was a dark-of-night, end-of-session, last-pass approval by the board that was voted off last year for exactly this hyper-development attitude. Residents, who don't want this kind of development any more than Chapel Hill preservationists, succeeded in getting rid of the board, but not before they secured this development.

(I realize that this is just one step above gossip and would be happy for anyone else to confirm or deny.)

This new development will have a direct impact on our community in two ways.

First, the driveway will be in Orange County. Under the proposed plans, the developer will add two left turn lefts to 15-501 coming from Chapel Hill and 1 through lane from Smith Level. Chapel Hill, Carrboro, Orange County and the MPO staff have reviewed and commented to DOT on the traffic plans.

Unfortunately, as I understand it, neither Chapel Hill nor Orange County can do anything but comment on the plans. DOT holds all the cards in making the final decision on the driveway connection and other road plans.

Second, the stormwater from this development will drain into a creek that dumps into Morgan Creek. If the developers mitigation plan is insufficient, we will be carrying the load and paying the price, especially in view of the Jordan Lake rules where our area is already supposed to reduce total volume of runoff by 40+%.

Do either of these issues give us the right to review the plans? Maybe not, but then again, courtesy among neighbors serves a certain non-quantifiable benefit for future relations.

"Unfortunately, as I understand it, neither Chapel Hill nor Orange County can do anything but comment on the plans. DOT holds all the cards in making the final decision on the driveway connection and other road plans."

I understand DOT has jurisdiction over state highways, but surely Chapel Hill could make things VERY uncomfortable for Chatham County. A permanent traffic cop, rigorously enforcing speed limits would, no doubt, make using that proposed mall uncomfortable. At least, we could make such intimations to the appropriate officials.

What brand of big box are we talking about? Home Improvement? Junk 'n Stuff?

for years, Orange County has "lorded it over"
Chatham/Durham/Alamance County with,
essentially, an "i'm cool, you're not" attitude
which was very overt in the '80's.
payback is being surrounded
by Big Box Hell.

The barbarians around us can keep on falling for the same old crappy economics that have brought such masterpieces of planning as the 15-501 corridor and the Burlington schlock along I-85 , and we remain cooler - overt or not.

well if we dont want smith level rd to turn into a four lane or maybe a 6 lane highway for all the catham co. traffic to come to this area and get built out.and we will have more and more traffic coming to that walmart mall .the state dot is already threatening to widening it to a 4 lane high way which carrboro doesnt want or need we better be on our toes and be pro active

"The barbarians around us can keep on falling for the same old crappy economics that have brought such masterpieces of planning as the 15-501 corridor and the Burlington schlock along I-85 , and we remain cooler - overt or not."

And in one sentence, Mark Marcoplos proves John of Sparta's point.

Interesting comments. It's correct that that these developments have impact on Orange County residents in the form of traffic, etc etc. and that they are strategically placed to capture the $$ that Orange County residents spend. I guess I am more interested in why we think prohibiting or limiting our neighbor's ability to provide the goods and services that Orange County residents seem to want (as voted by their spending $$ there and creating the traffic that everyone mentions) is preferable to Orange County providing those shoppping options for its own residents in its own community, and collecting the taxes to mitigate the impacts we experience anyway when these developments get built on what is essentially our zero lot line.

Videri Quam Esse. We'd be cooler if we didn't shop there, but obviously we do...a lot.

"Fighting human nature head on is a painful way to try to change things." Amen to that. That doesn't mean change can't be brought about though. I think the moral is that when trying to bring about change we have to be aware that different people think differently. People try to persuade others in a manner that would work on themselves. Instead they should try to imagine how the other person thinks and then try to determine what approach would work on them.

Anita wrote: I guess I am more interested in why we think prohibiting or limiting our neighbor's ability to provide the goods and services that Orange County residents seem to want....

My interest isn't in prohibiting or limiting our neighbor's ability to provide these services. I just think that geographical borders are sensitive areas. When residents from one county/city do something they know will impinge upon the environment of another county/city, it just seems to me to be basic courtesy to give the group paying the costs the option to review the plans and find the least intrusive/invasive means possible for moving forward. Sort of like when one roommate is neat and the other isn't. Communication and compromise is required.

"The barbarians around us can keep on falling for the same old crappy economics that have brought such masterpieces of planning as the 15-501 corridor and the Burlington schlock along I-85 , and we remain cooler - overt or not."

It seems that whether we think we're cooler or not, we do shop at these places and keep them in business, and the respective counties can laugh all the way to the bank with the millions in sales taxes they're raking in from Orange County-ites. They may be saying, Who's cool now?

If we decided to stick our nose in their business, they might ask:

Do you live in Chatham County?
Do you live in Chatham County?
Do you live in Chatham County?

Frank McBride, that was classic! I wonder how many people here will get that joke.

You all wanted the division of politics, well, you got it! Maybe this will help swell the ranks or EarthFirst! in Carrboro and you might actually get something (un)done.

Trying to make a better life through politics is like trying to stir the milk out or your coffee.

This dilemma is a symptom of many years of our towns being more skilled at saying where and how growth should NOT occur than saying where and how growth SHOULD occur.

While there is surely room to debate how much support New Hope Commons gets from Orange and Durham residents, this development in Chatham makes ZERO sense (or cents) without Orange County residents supporting it. The credo in large scale commercial development is "retail follows rooftops"- this big box is not coming online to serve Briar Chapel, whenever it is built out in 5-9 years. It is to serve existing residents of Southern Orange County. (following the existing rooftops)

Anita makes a very good point. What good is getting all the negative externalities of the big box 10 feet over the border, and none of the tax revenue, with all of the volume pricing power to undercut local businesses? This is undoubtedly the worst of all possible worlds.

By this development occurring in Chatham rather than Orange, there's also the likelihood that this development is coming to fruition under a regulatory scheme with lower levels of environmental regulation and safeguards than in Orange.

Lest anyone draw the wrong conclusion, I'm not a big box fan. But this is going to keep happening unless we do something to strengthen the retail sector in Orange County.

What's the answer? Maybe we should be doing more to nurture a business like Powell Mercantile in Orange County. Maybe we should be talking to Costco, which has a good record on wages compared to many other large retailers, about a mixed-use redevelopment served by buses at Carrboro Plaza.

There is obviously a retail market to be served in southern Orange County, and there is a valuable concern for the environment and quality of life here. We have a lot of smart people here- we ought to be able to find a way to develop a greater number of retail options in Orange county that are consistent with local values and not those of Bentonville, Arkansas.

Mark, I agree with your 11:19 post. But most people only consider the first sentance and not the rest.

I think socially and environmentally responsible business is possible. Even with big box style biz. Orange County and its Towns can be a part of this new way of doing business. Just like there is a big move towards investing in carbon neutral businesses.

Check out what folks are doing over at Big Box Collaborative. Pretty interesting collaboration of "representatives from labor, environmental and public health groups, consumer advocates, shareholder activists, international trade and labor rights groups, faith-based organizations, communities, and others"

One advantage, will be that the residents from Carrboro and the south side of Chapel Hill, can now travel in a different direction to buy their goods and services, and help cut down on the traffic on 15-501. Especially with the coming bottleneck and accident magnet at the new Fordham/Erwin/Europa intersection.
Think of all those fewer carbon emissions in our fair community. Chapel Hill may also see a benefit to run buses to the Chatham stores. They already have a park and ride lot there.

For the record, I agree with Mark M's 11:19 post that we cannot overlook the big picture. What I am suggesting is that we start thinking (or continue thinking, just more vigorously) about how to address the "behind the curtain" aspects of global-scale retailing and providing an alternative, locally.

We have the growing Fair Trade movement. We have companies like TS Designs nearby. Weaver Street Market, many local restaurants touting local menu items, and the increasing number of CSAs show that there is a drive in the community to purchase locally when given the opportunity.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I believe that spread across some of these businesses is the DNA of a business model that is vastly superior on equity and environmental metrics, and competitive enough on economic metrics to succeed.

Ode to Foxes

"We do not like your plans,
and screw your low prices,
In big boxes hide foxes
and they'll cut us in slices."

Thus the war started,
the new north vs. south.
"Buy Local, Buy Local!"
rang from of everyone's mouth.

"Put up a toll road!
that's what we'll say,
We'll make those Chathamites
remember this day!"

But the Government was great
and they declared with great honor;
"We must work together
with our neighbors down yonder."

So north and south spoke
but the forest got flattened,
Cause during town meetings
the foxes made other things happen.

The foxes were cunning,
they hid their real plan.
And the people fought a puppet
they thought was The Man.

Now there are no big boxes,
just little ones instead,
And the green fertile land
is now paved over and dead,

Cause the foxes knew well
give 'em choice and they'll choose,
instead of thinking with their heads
they will play by our rules.

So let this be a lesson,
when you bargain with a fox;
A box is a box,
is a box is a box.

Wow !! A protest song !!

The number of jobs has been growing for a long time. The number of housing has grown less so. That means (a) the cost of housing has gone up in CH/C due to demand exceeding supply and (b) areas outside of CH/C have been growing because people that work in CH/C have to live somewhere. And then the people that serve those people via grocery store, restaurants, etc, have to live somewhere too.

Whoever said a store in Chatham just south of Orange would only serve people in Orange needs to check out all the traffic streaming in from south of town each work day. Northern Chatham is growing like crazy. There is a new Harris Teeter down there past Lowes in a plaza with some other stores. There is a new Lowes further down there. And of course Briar Chapel will add a lot more housing.

And yeah, some of the business will be from southern Orange, Southern Village or whatever, but that's just a mile or two from northern Chatham and there isn't be a comparable place a mile or two away that's in Orange so it's not like a place in northern Chatham is poaching on them.

This is all a long way of saying the reason a big box may be built in northern Chatham is that it will succeed due to high demand.

There are some people that simply prefer living farther out and driving everywhere they go, maybe because they like living in the country or maybe because they simply like driving everywhere they go. How to change such attitudes is a question but given that the attitudes exsit those people create demand and therefore cause stores to be built.

Some other people would like to be able to live without big stores or whatever and driving to all of them but simply don't have the option so they too create demand.

The way to avoid a big box in north Chatham is to have built (in the past) about a half dozen more Southern Villages (except more densely populated) all over CH and C along with whatever stores such people would need to shop at. Then a big box in northern Chatham would flop because there'd be nobody to shop at one. But of course, building all that would've made life crappier for the people that already live in CH/C, so it would've been a trade off.

Or they could just put another Weaver street market there and that would make the CH/C crowd silent. Beautiful downtown Hillsborough has had to suffer such an eyesore, but it's a protected business, so therefore no protest.

Will - are you prescient?

Fighting human nature head on is a painful way to try to change things. People will shop where they want and when there's not enough choices, stores will be built.

"I think the moral is that when trying to bring about change we have to be aware that different people think differently. People try to persuade others in a manner that would work on themselves. Instead they should try to imagine how the other person thinks and then try to determine what approach would work on them."

Jose,

What you have so clearly described is what I call the "art of negotiation". It works well when trying to resolve differences amongst neighbors or neighborhoods, between towns and developers (or universities), and in just about most situations where there are differences. You can't readily resolve differences unless you know what it is that the other party needs (or wants) out of the negotiation. Unfortunately too many people are in too much of a hurry to spend the time to get that information so discussions often hit a wall before they have a chance to really begin. Perhaps we should all make it our New Year's resolution to spend more time finding out what the other party(ies) needs or wants before we get too locked in to our own positions.

I don't care for the business model of the big box retail chains for many of the reasons that were pointed out above. I'd prefer to buy from a local provider, but sometimes I need cheap plastic coat hangers, an electric blanket, and a wide selection of inexpensive shower curtains. If there's a Target or whatever in Chatham county, I'm a lot more likely to go there than 15-501. What would really be nice is an IKEA store. Can you work that out, towncouncil? Kthxbai.