James Brown Funk Spirit High School

Mark; thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful response.

I think your analogy is easy to understand, and I'm also sure the history makes a difference. About that, I'm clueless.

But do bear these things in mind:

* I come from the west coast (Portland, to be specific), and for what it's worth, 100% of the people I know there can identify Chapel Hill, and think favorably of it, and 0% know of Carrboro. This kind of favorable nationwide (and arguably worldwide) name recognition for a town of 40,000 people is extremely unusual.

Should it be decisive in this case? Maybe not, but it's worth a moment to pause and think about what it means.

For example: I've asked the question: do college admissions staff (in a casual and unscientific sample) care? The answer: no, and even if they did, the good ones already know CH and Carrboro are joined at the hip. But it's worth asking the question, and a rational response.

* As I mentioned above, and will repeat: it's not obvious to me that this site is located all that much closer to central Carrboro than other major population centers in Chapel Hill. You might point out that the site fits within big plans for Carrboro growth in the future, but right now, someone can credibly claim: this site really isn't truly situated in Carrboro proper.

The fact that it sits within "incorporated" Carrboro doesn't, by itself, make it so. This is the take from the Chapel Hill News that bugged me the most.

* In the same vein: don't be surprised if, early on, most of the kids attending this school will come from Chapel Hill, and occasionally wonder why they attend Carrboro High School. Is this a problem? I guess not. But we should have a good, insightful message for them.

Finally (sorry to drag on here): here's a pro-Carrboro HS argument I'd like someone to make:

"The name Carrboro High School will link the school's reputation and the town's reputation together. Give this name, and you will get an entire town standing behind it, determined to make it the best school in the district. We know that if the school lags behind, the putdowns will continue for another century, and frankly, will have an element of truth."

I'm convinced that kind of argument will persuade everyone, vs. the entitlementish and emotionalish kind. Here's hoping. Peace.

You have to wonder what the kids think of this debate.

I'm sure almost any kid couldn't care less. Is that your point?

Let me restate: Actually, I have no clue what kids think. What do you think the kids think?

In an unscientific poll of the two kids in my basement (only two--not the usual ravening horde--midterms tomorrow) the results were as follows:

One didn't care-- and the other thought it "was better than naming it after some person."

But BOTH thought Tie Dye High would be cool.

It should be noted that BOTH are Seniors, and thus utterly unaffected by the choice.

melanie

I thought I was phat and a fly dude and quite down with the young people of today. I actually thought they would think it was a bunch of silly, double-think bs with more attention being paid to what things seemed to be rather than what they are. But maybe I'm just projecting...

A lot of meaty thoughts packed into those two sentences, bro. Someday, you'll have to unpack it for us.

Boy, this subject really touched a nerve or three. Must be a contender for the most posts on OP on the least weighty topic in the shortest time. If it were really about the name and not about a culture war we could just call it PHS #3 and be done....

BTW, pace Mark C's usage (which is apparently becoming the norm) according to my dictionary the meaning of the word "moot" is: debatable, open to discussion/question, arguable, questionable, at issue, open to doubt, disputable, controversial, contentious, disputed, unresolved, unsettled, up in the air. Thus the topic is moot until the board decides, not the other way round.

Mark--kids don't say "phat" anymore. Now is something is particularly amazing (or impressive)it is "sick." As in "I scored a couple of sick goals in FIFA '06 last night."

I know some of the teen slang--but have never attempted to use it.

melanie/GET OFFA MY LAWN

Now IF something is amazing... yeesh. sometimes print preview doesn't even help!

melanie

OK, Dan, I'll buy that. My point stands.

-Alex

I play a pretty ill game of FIFA 02, but I'm hoping to aspire to sickness if I get 06 for Christmas.

Given how the other high schools have been named, it seems logical and appropriate that the new one should be Carrboro High. Chapel Hill High was originally downtown (where University Square is now). When it was rebuilt as a suburban school, Chapel Hill did a satellite annexation of the site since it was well outside the town limits. It was out in the sticks, farther in many ways than the site of the new school is from present Carrboro.

The most curious argument to me against naming the school for Carrboro is that it would mean that some students from
Chapel Hill would have to go to a school named for Carrboro. Horrors! It's odd because until now one hundred percent of Carrboro students (including our two children) have gone to a high school named for Chapel Hill without apparent damage to their psyches or geographic orientation. My guess is that most young Chapel Hill residents could similarly survive attending high school named for a neighbor. Counseling could be provided for the especially troubled few.

Let the School Board get on with naming Carrboro High. Susan and I were, curiously, among the 72 names proposed. We happily defer to Carrboro.

As someone who has worked as an admissions counselor for Wake Forest University, a mainstay of US News' top tier of National Universities, I find the argument about the Chapel Hill name adding cachet above and beyond "Carrboro High School" to college admissions applications to be absolutely hilarious.

The reason I am amused is that the argument presumes that the gatekeepers to the most elite universities in the US are, in fact, shallow, easily duped fools who know little about their own business and will admit a kid based on the name of a school and not SAT, grades, class rank, AP scores, essaywriting, and activities.

First, as Fred Black rightfully pointed out, ALL schools send a profile of the high school with their transcript, listing many of the things that admissions counselors need to know about the school- average SAT of last year's graduating seniors, number of AP courses available, percent of students that go on to 4-year colleges, list of colleges to which students were admitted last year, etc. And yes, college admissions counselors DO read these.

Second, when college recruiters plan a trip, they do visit schools from which they have recently received multiple quality applications. If Carrboro High School winds up with similar performing students to the other 2 area high schools, and we have no reason to believe it won't, CHS will be quickly on the radar of many top colleges as its talented students begin applying here, there, and everywhere.

Of course, guidance counselors also help get the word out with phone calls and letters like "hey, we just opened up, we're in a school district with an average SAT over 1100. Next time you swing through NC recruiting, pay us a visit."

I received calls like this, and indeed, I visited those schools after seeing the profile documentation.

The bottom line- if parents are truly concerned about their child's chances getting into college XYZ, then their best bet is to worry about their child's grades, SAT scores, and writing ability. Compared to those three, the name of the high school is meaningless.

Hey James,

"PHS 3": Does that stand for "Phat High School #3"?
Word!

-Alex

I'm reminded of this line from (name-this-movie): "But I'm hilarious how? I mean, hilarious like I'm a clown? I amuse you? Tell me what's hilarious"

I'm a person who has asked this question about high school names and college admissions. On my own, I informally asked a bunch (maybe a half dozen) admissions officers in different places where I had some familiarity. And they all essentially said what you said, Patrick.

But here's the point: I wouldn't have assumed it without asking. I would have no other immediate reason to know this stuff. Nor would the parents expressing anxiety about this topic. I, for one, am happy to be enlightened, but I have no reason to assume the happy news story you're telling.

So what's the moral? Have a decision process. Give this seemingly ephemeral and trivial matter at least a few cycles of consideration with good people from different perspectives, before you screw it up and can't fix it.

Make no mistake: you can screw this decision up and truly embarrass your community. A suburb of Seattle close to where I grew up (Renton) innocently named a high school Charles A. Lindbergh High School in the 70's. Think they'd like to take that one back?

I have no idea what kinds of claims have been made about college admissions; but I have to ask (defensively I suppose): cut us mere mortals some slack. If college admissions professionals have a chance to explain something about how that game works, then we've accomplished at least one thing besides naming the school.

Last message, I swear. PS OK, I substituted "hilarious" for "funny" in the quote above.

One last note, to Alan Spalt:

I raised the issue you mentioned in one my blurbs; in my case, I didn't say "some", I said "most".

To be more precise: why would you insist on naming it Carrboro High School if, after the lines are drawn a) most (not some) of the new kids come from CH and b) conceivably, many if not most of the kids within Carrboro still attend Chapel Hill HS?

Woudl this happen? I don't know. Does it matter? No. But it just speaks to a slightly more interesting question: How "Carrboro-ish" is this site, really?

Somebody please make that case, gently yet persuasively. And I'll shut up forever.

Ian (and others), it is deeply offensive to many Carrboro residents that our town name is somehow not good enough for a high school (for some people, all of whom seem to be in Chapel Hill). If it's not a big deal, shouldn't this concern for your neighbors be enough?

My children attended Estes Hills Elementary School, and we don't live in Estes Hills. In fact, the majority of students there didn't live in Estes Hills. Until Ian posed his question, I didn't realize I was owed an explanation. In fact, I didn't know I was even offended. So I'll be very interested in hearing an explanation as well.

Joan;

I don't get the sense that anyone is suggesting the name (Carrboro) isn't good enough. Tell me if you think I'm wrong. There are a few straightforward questions that ought to be addressed, and likely will be as the process concludes. This moment is the one chance for the school district to consider its options.

I also think there are better lines of reasoning to justify the Carrboro name than the one's I've heard. I could rattle off a number of them. The district and the town should use this event as a way to build some energy for the school, all over the district, and especially parts of CH and Carrboro that will likely be served by it. This doesn't need to be an act of atonement.

PS Assuming the Carrboro name goes forward, I also hope (and would assume) the town's goal is a 7-0 vote, or something approaching it. Also, sorry if I'm straining this thread. It's addicting.

Ed; sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.

Ruby; fine. I've made a number of points and I'm not sure what you're objecting to, but no need to respond. I'm done.

You've misinterpreted my point on the vote.

Of course I haven't been here long. Delighted with the welcome.

Ian, your comments have given me and others much food for thought and are always welcome.

I've changed my thinking several times in the course of this lively debate. There's a case to be made for the Chapel Hill name recognition factor -- moot in terms of college admissions, as we all seem to agree, but valuable to school board constituents. Notice my economy of words. I still hope Carrboro High gets the nod.

Catherine; thanks, that was very kind.

I notice and admire your economy of words, and aspire to achieve it.

Here's wishing consensus and a creative mascot name. Best to all of you.

Ian, I hope you are still reading. Yes, I do think there is some anti-Carrboro bias going on. I'm fairly sure of it, actually. And that's why buttons are getting pushed--especially from comments like Carrboro being "the wrong side of the tracks."

I'm a relatively new Carrboro resident myself and did live in Chapel Hill for several years a few years ago, but I don't know the history nearly as well as others. I hope someone else can chime in.

But as an example: last year the house next door to us was for sale. A nice woman was looking at and thought it was a cute house in a nice neighborhood. I think the asking price was around $225,000 or something. Her dad (who lives in the Oaks) thought it was ridiculous that any house in Carrboro could possibly be worth that much. This didn't offend me (his ignorance was mildly amusing, actually, especially since we had just gone through our own house hunt), but I suspect it's the same kind of thinking that leads some people not to want their kids to go to Carrboro High--the idea that Carrboro is, how shall we put it, scarier than Baghdad.

Catherine, we Carrboro residents are also school board constituents. I'm not sure what you meant with your comment about that.

If the school board votes for anything other than Carrboro High, I would likely interpret that as an indication that they feel the name Carrboro isn't good enough. Does anyone think I'm wrong about this?

Many years ago Carrboro kids would go to their own elementary school and then to Chapel Hill high,The Chapel Hill kids would call the Carrboro kids lint heads because their parents worked in the mill.So maybe the motto of Carrboro High should be LINT HEADS RULE! My feeling is that many people in Chapel Hill really like Carrboro and feel like me that we are in many ways one community but two towns.The folks who move here just for our schools and leave after the youngest is out of high school don't see themselves as member of a community as much as they consider themselves consumers of an educational system.So it stands to reason that they may want the product they are purchasing to have the "best" brand name.There are some in Carrboro who have come for the same reason.But these are a small minority in both towns-they just happen to be very vocal because they want to be sure that their "investment" pays high returns.

I still like the sound of "Rock Haven High." Not to dis Carrboro or anything.

FWIW--I know some long-time Carrborians (25 + years) who would rather the new HS NOT be named "Carrboro High." In fact--their comment was ANYTHING BUT. Their reason? The way the REST of the state views Carrboro. (Lots of people still remember the US/Nazi flag flap--and the vote against the Iraq War thing--and bur French day.) Carrboro has an even Hippy-er rep than Chapel Hill. So that may be part of the reason folks would rather not name it Carrboro High...

I don't give a flip. 5 months and a week or so and we are OUT of HS!

melanie

That may be so, but personally I'm proud to live in a town that abuts Carrboro. I see no reason why a school couldn't be named after the geographic location in which it resides, though, plenty of other names which have been suggested seemed perfectly fine as well. There are dummer names which have resulted in worse controversies. Of the three that we're choosing from, Carrboro High makes the most sense.

Jason--

I was just trying to explain ONE reason why SOME people didn't want it to be called "Carrboro High."

My prediciton--

The name will be some misbegotten conglomeration of South Chapel Hill and Carrboro High. With a hyphen.

I pray that I am wrong.

melanie

Melanie you mean something like "Scarrboro"?

No, more like
"Carrborro-South Chapel Hill" or "South Carrboro-Chapel Hill" High School.

melanie

Melanie posts:
Anita–Thanks–you were close. What I REALLY meant was that some of this areas progressives might be trust-fund kids–(I know of one who is) and that I didn't think Alex would want to put THEIR noses out of joint. He might, unkowningly, be insulting a compatriot.
_________________________________________________

Well put Melanie.

Some is Southern Village are going to fight for the Chapel Hill name: http://www.heraldsun.com/orange/10-689746.html ... and they are saying things out loud!

I stand by my first post-- The School Board will go with Carrboro High School of the Chapel Hill-Carrboro City School System.

BTW, do others get bombarded with pop up ads every time they go to the HS online?

Mary,
Improve your life for 20 bucks: http://www.popupcop.com/

From the Herald Article:

"I just want to ensure that my son receives the name benefit for where he lives and where I pay taxes."

Name benefit? Is this the type of person who pays a premium for a tee shirt with "Nike" spelled in large letters on the front?

"For what it's worth, Carrboro has, in some circles, a remarkably poor reputation," the writer said. "This is the town known to many North Carolinians as the place with the wacky mayor who has strange ideas about artwork and other strange ideas."

News Flash: Chapel Hill is a town known to many North Carolinians as a place with strange ideas. Doesn't this person know any extra-Chapel Hill North Carolinians?

Ed, I agree that the comment about the perception of Carrboro was strange. I lived in western NC for many years, and I think that residents there gave very little thought to Chapel Hill, but, if asked, many folks might have said Chapel Hill made them think, 1) university and 2) wacky hippies. Something like that. And perhaps 3) basketball. Or maybe 1) basketball. But you get the point.

What was interesting about this Herald article was that folks finally said what they really think about Carrboro, what many of us have suspected people were thinking.

Kudos to Virginia Purdick (no one I know):

Virginia Purdick, a Chapel Hill resident, pushed for Carrboro High School.

"To name it anything that includes the name Chapel Hill I believe to be exclusive and arrogant in ourselves as Carrboro's largest neighbor," she said.

Could this Southern Village campaign have any impact? And is it worth it for Carrboro residents to do something similar?

Joan--my immediate (and not very charitable) reaction after reading that article was to suggest an email campaign requesting the school board to ban Southern Village students from attending Carrboro High. Of course, then the parents would complain that their kids have to spend too much time on the bus. Why is every single education issue in this community so damn divisive?

Terri

I think there is a lot of pent up desire to care for and help children that is exacerbated by the fact that at a very early age they are turned over to government run schools for nearly half of their waking hours. Sometimes this repressed emotional feeling comes out in awkward ways.

I recall that when East CHH was being named, it was headed toward being named something else before parents intervened to get the "Chapel Hill" stamp on it. That was largely because of (they said) the brand name value of Chapel Hill to college admissions counselors. So I don't think any such effort today is purely anti-Carrboro in motivation.

Terri--
Southern Village is the whole reason that HS is down there. Instead of out on Eubanks. Where it would be
1) Already built
2) OPEN
3) Alleviating crowding at the current HS's.

My kid has been through four crowded years at East--and in June I am officially FINISHED with HS. Pity they didn't get the stupid school BUILT--but there was a huge push to put it in the Southern part of town. By the folks in Southern Village (among others.) So, yes. I think they could have an impact

Yeah, I'm still ticked off. You would be too if you had a kid at one of the HS's right now. The ikis are packied in like sardines--with lots of teachers having to use carts.

Given the history, I DON'T think banning the kids from SV would work.

melanie

Melanie,

The two existing high schools are already on the north side of town, so it made demographic sense to build the next one on the south side. It's not just Southern Village. There are thousands of apartments representing the opposite socio-economic extremes closer to the new HS than CHHS, not to mention Eubanks.

The County should already be thinking about building the fourth HS at Eubanks, and the third HS should be built for 1200 to start with, not just 800. Much of the slow pace is to save costs today, while some of it was the Commissioners begruding CHCCS as few concessions as they could manage. If Barry Jacobs manages to get reelected this year, it will be because CHCCS school parents don't understand his role (but not only his) in delaying this high school by *years*.

Any college recruiter worth a dime would know that the new highschool, even if it is named Carrboro High School, is in the CHCCS district. Plus, the school will maintain the fine reputation of our system just by achieving the same high level of excellence as the other two schools.

Could someone confirm or deny: will the final CHCCS board vote on this matter take place Thursday (1/19) at the meeting, at Smith MS?

I haven't seen anything about the scheduled vote, recently, and the article said nothing about it.

I've also searched in vain for an agenda. Thanks.