Learn more about transit

It's startling to check the OP site after a number of comments have been made on an issue and read the progression (or regression) all at once.

A simple suggestion to run downtown bus service later into the evening once a week spawned some incomprehensible and vitriolic reactions.

The way that I see it, this is bigger than once a week for dinner-it's about re-education and acceptance of what needs to happen in Chapel Hill and elsewhere. Automobile use has to decrease. Gasoline is a non-remewable resource and there are still many more SUVs in Chapel Hill than hybrids (though I hope not for long). This is about the environment. If we don't start changing our habits we will be faced with realities and costs much worse than the taxes that increased bus service may result in. This is also about community. We all benefit in different ways from living in our town, county, state, and country and we all contribute to it. How can anyone deny the value of contributing to the greater good unless they're willing to literally stop availing themselves of anything they have not paid for in full by themselves?

Yes, it would be great to have more later running buses so that we can help the environment, have fun, and ingrain this positive habit in our kids.

GeorgeC--I don't know what petition you're talking about but if it pushes the envelope on transit, count me in!

Given the $3.00 a gallon gas that we will soon be paying, I think all PAST experiments in mass transit can be thrown out the window. My wife and I just figured out our plan for the Fall, when our son will be going to preschool. It involves both of us alternating between driving and using buses throughout the day. Will it take about ten or fifteen minutes longer to travel? Yep. Will we be able to read, talk with the kids, or close our eyes and relax? Yep.

We are in a new era of gas prices. Maybe elsewhere folks are sticking to their 9 MPG SUVs, but it seems that HERE we have the opportunity to do something different.

Terri,
Robert Peterson had said in one of his posts that he would be willing to sign a petition in support of increased bus service so I was figuratively suggesting that we might join him. However, I was thinking this morning that it might be time to actually put such a petition in motion to find out how much support there really is in the community. Since service is decided jointly by the three partners (UNC, CH, Carrboro) perhaps we could have three petitions - one for CH residents, one for Carrboro residents, and one for UNC students/employees not covered by either of the first two.
I think that Robert's last post speaks directly to the issue. The cost of energy is going to have a significant effect on us in many ways as we are now beginning to see in the most recent CPI numbers. It doesn't mean much that the core inflation rate is low if the cost of everyday living is going up at a 6% rate. While many people in CH/Carrboro will be able to continue to get by, those people that are just managing on their current incomes will be dramatically affected. There are numerous reasons to increase bus service which I won't begin to get into now but I think a petition to our governing municipalities/authorities supporting this idea might help them to make their decisions.

I think a specific proposal on a petition is an excellent idea.

GeorgeC,
Just to clarify, I didn't say that, but it was suggested I WAS the first petition signer. I have no problem with that, I like the idea. I also like the idea of community involvement in making these decisions. How many voices are enough? Some folks are NOT going to get out of their cars no matter what you do, some times it just isn't feasible. How many hours would it take to get three children to three schools and yourself to work? Others are just "above" the bus.
Given that, how many people does the GOVERNMENT need to hear from to make it a legitimate concern?

I think you should also include Orange County residents, Chatham residents, and Durham residents in the survey. There are park and rides available (and most are very full) for those of us who travel to town frequently but do not pay into the system.

Terri,
I wasn't thinking so much in terms of a survey but rather a petition to each of the three partners. It would say something like "We the undersigned would like to request from the three transportation partners (UNC, CH, Carrboro) expanded CHT service on weekend evenings. In support of such expanded service on weekend evenings we would be willing to pay up to a 10% increase in the transportation tax rate / administrative fees currently levied by each of the partners on their respective constituents."

I would also, on the petition form, give an example of what a 10% increase would mean to the average homeowner in terms of actual dollars and what it might mean to the students in terms of an increase in their fees. For renters we would have to try to get some handle on what percentage of rents generally go toward property taxes and then calculate the increase in the transportation portion from that.

Although it would be helpful to know how county (Chatham, Durham, Orange) residents feel toward increased service, I think a petition should come from those who are currently being assessed by the partners. Whether any of the counties would ever consider becoming a partner in CHT, even on a very limited basis, is another issue and really gets into the issue of regional transit. We obviously already have TTA and I can't, nor should I, even begin to discuss here how we expand their role since there are much more qualified persons, such as Patrick McDonough, to do that.
My goal was to follow up on Ed Neely's suggestion that weekend evening bus service might be useful. I think we begin by getting some of the "non-users" to try the system in order to convince them that this is a service that has value not only to the community but to them personally.

Here's some balance to the special-interest types who
recite that their special interest (in this case more
buses) is so important that they're
willing to see their taxes go up and that everyone should
be willing to go along with a property tax increase to fund
their special interest:

My new property tax bill came in yesterday's mail. It is for $6210, a 24 pct increase from last year's $5,000 bill. This includes town taxes, county taxes, school district tax, solid waste fee, and stormwater fee. Before you think "Stop complaining, your house just went up in value and you
will profit", listen to this: Since we moved ito this house in 1986, the property tax has gone up seven-fold, while the house value has multipled by 2.5, and the inflation factor has less than doubled. So the bulk of the increase is due to higher taxes, primarily for county functions.

My point for this thread is that before we spend money for more buses, we need to establish for certain that there will be a steady source of riders for any new routes or extended
hours of service.

I'm with you, Joe. I proposed that any extended bus service should be offered after some type of inexpensive study showed it would be used enough to make it worthwhile. What is worthwhile has a lot of interpretations, as evidenced by some comments here. One definition would be that the service carry enough riders over the course of the average night so that less fuel is used than would be used if those riders drove into town.

Thank you gentlemen. I've been saying this over and over and was feeling a little out of touch.

Now, that said. I hope the transit board comes up with some proposals, not only to extend hours, but to include truly disadvantaged neighborhoods, like the Rogers Road community, who've been asking for a bus stop.

Joe, Ed:
Based on your comments I would suggest something like "If there was increased CHT bus service on Friday/Saturday evenings would you use it? If so, would you be willing to fund it with an increase of as much as 5 or 10% of your current transportation assessment (tax or fee)?" Does this work?

Joe,
I feel your pain, although my % increase wasn't nearly as high as yours. Since you gave us a number to work with, a 10% increase in the transportation tax would add about $20 to your $6200 bill.

George,

I've done some homework on kerosene in the Chapel Hill fleet.

Kerosene has a drying effect when blended with diesel, i.e. it reduces the lubricity of the fuel. The accomodate this, Town of Chapel Hill has ordered modified buses that can accomodate the lower lubricity blends.

Since biodiesel increases lubricity, it could be burned in any Chapel Hill Bus without any modification whatsoever. Last year the Town cut to straight diesel fuel in their modified buses for a three month period.

I think you folks should consider moving off of kerosene (still a non-renewable polluting fossil) and over to biodiesel (clean, renewable, and made in America).

Thanks.

Thank you Lyle for the research, it's good to know there's no structural impediments (other than supply and price ;-) ) to using biodiesel in our fleet.

George, Joe is paying $510 a month for the privilege of living in Chapel Hill and you want to lump only $20 a year on to his tax bill? I want to keep our bus system but increasing funding is premature until we improve on what we have (such as rejiggering the existing routes to accommodate travel along the periphery of Town - such as Rogers Rd.). We need to - improve utilization by working within its current financial footprint.

Without the TOC, Chapel Hill's budget would've been in better shape but that's predicated on the idea that the current tax levels are reasonable. They're not reasonable. We need to make some improvements in the way we spend those hard earned dollars and readjust our attitude that Chapel Hill is a wealthy community that can absorb increase after increase.

But, as I'm sure Joe is well aware of, the current OC Commissioners should bear the brunt of criticism for the current tax levels.

One thing I believe most Chapel Hillians could do now is to challenge their reassessments. It seems to me that there's a delta in the increase of property values in Chapel Hill or that of equivalent properties in other communities (yes, I know Chapel Hill is just that much closer to heaven, but...).

The way we're headed, Chapel Hill will become a "gateless" gated community with taxes being just one of the barriers.

Lyle, I also want to add my thanks for your research. Do you by any chance have any figures on what the cost difference would be for biodiesel versus kerosene or diesel? I'm aware of the advantages, such as cleaner air, reusable resource, and supporting the local economy. It would be nice to have some idea of how much additional cost might be involved.

WillR, you stated"George, Joe is paying $510 a month for the privilege of living in Chapel Hill and you want to lump only $20 a year on to his tax bill?"
That's correct! I realize that we need to improve service throughout the system and to add new areas such as Rogers Road, but I think the key to both of those issues is to get more public support for the system in general. And one of the ways to do that is to get those citizens who aren't using the buses now to try them so that they can see the advantages that the buses offer. Unfortunately, a lot of the people who aren't current users are those that work outside of Chapel Hill and their only opportunities to use the system are usually nights or weekends. I would support additional service whether I get to use it or not because I think it is the right thing to do for the future growth in this area. I don't currently get to use CHT very much because I work in Durham. But if there was evening service I certainly would use it and I would hope that we might be able to add some converts to the support of a functional, well-integrated mass transit system for our community.

George, the other day I was talking to someone about the "learning curve" associated with the bus service and the necessity to have "faith" that "if you build it" they will come.

I think a great example of this (which Blair Pollock reiterated in WCHL yesterday) is the recycling system. I remember all the flack that recycling has brought over the years - "no one will do it", "costs too much per unit collected", etc. - but when you amortorized the costs over the long haul, especially considering the landfill issue, it's a good deal. Unfortunately, there was a "learning curve" associated with recycling, so the critics could point to the lack of short term results (anyone with a retirement account will be familiar with what happens when the focus is exclusively on the short term). Now we've got a system that's well embedded in our community's psychology - to the point of removing this service would leave a noticeable gap in our everyday lives.

Simila rly for the bus system. I find it difficult to imagine returning to a fare-based system. Having said that, though, we need to make sure we're serving both the special community (UNC-based ridership) and general community (Rogers Rd., Eastgate/Ch. Hill North) effectively and efficiently. And if we change the service we need to work within the current budgetary footprint (revenue neutral to use federal speak).

If we can work in biodiesel (maybe at the cost of ditching some of the Town's "leather-seated SUVs") all the better.

Will, Have you looked at the Chamber of Commerce's report entitled "Toward a Sustainable Community in Southern Orange County"? One of the foundational statements around which this report was developed is: "Multiple forms of transportation to increase connectivity and reduce the impacts on air quality, watersheds and public health that result from dependence on the automobile." You are currently paying a stormwater impact fee in part because of overdependence on cars and roads and driveways. By increasing the availability of 'multiple forms of transportation", it is possible that fees and taxes on stormwater (over time) could be lowered.

Effective planning for technology also enters into the equation. I've read a couple of reports that indicate that telecommuters actually increase the demand for roads and dependence on automobiles. I hope that you and the other candidates in this years election will take the approach that a "planful' approach to growth and funding looks at how each of the elements of the town's budget impacts others. That's my rant on the school budget issue. These issues do not operate in isolation of each other. Both towns needs strategic plans for growth and development, plans that are consistently evaluated, updated and reported to citizens.

George, surveys aren't my specialty, but one would want to dig a little deeper. The study should also include "how often?" and "from where, to where?" Just asking "would you use it?" does not give us much. From a cost justification perspective, riding once a week is better than riding once per year, but both riders could answer yes to "would you use it?" And likewise, 4 miles is better than 4 blocks, in terms of reducing fuel usage, emissions, and traffic congestion.

Ed, You're right, of course. We would need to gather as much information as possible without making it so lengthy that people are reluctant to participate. Perhaps there is someone at the University who has the appropriate experience and might volunteer. It would be great if there was a survey available at FestiFall (although it shouldn't be restricted just to those people or that time) since it would provide a lot of potential respondees in one place.

Night Service:
What about a small surcharge for night service, a $1 a ride?

I think one of the hardest aspects of the night service would be routes. I would want one that encompassed SV, but how many of my neighbors would use it? An Eastgate to Weaver Street Market route seems like a good idea to hit MANY of the local businesses, but leaves out neighborhoods.

George and company:

The State Contract price for kerosene on 8/15 was 2.0776. On that same day B20 was 2.0161.

That indicates that the buses would save money, and improve emissions using biodiesel.

My phone calls to Chapel Hill Transit to enquire about blend percentages have not been returned, however when you consider the amount of biodiesel being used by Chapel Hill public works, it appears kerosene in the buses is a strange anomaly.

Lyle, I will continue to probe why the Town thinks we can't use biodiesel for transit and other purposes. I pursued this before through inquiries about our "Green Fleets" program (which I will be covering in more detail during the election cycle) but with the price equivalency you quoted (and the expected impacts of the New Orleans disaster), there's no time like the present to move forward.

BTW, for any citizen interested in transit, there's a meeting coming up

Town Council Joint Meeting with the Chapel Hill/Carrboro/UNC Transit Partners

Wednesday, September 7, 2005, 7:00 p.m.

Friday Center

Lyle,
Thanks for the update. With the steep increases in fossil fuels it appears that biodiesel now has a cost advantage in addition to its emissions advantage. Hopefully the expanded use of biodiesel to CHT buses will be revisited in the near future.

Chapel Hill Prepare

For the last two days the buses have been standing room only. I know the students are back, but the buses seem much more full than last semester. In addition, on Monday I waited for my normal NS bus home, only to see it drive by with FULL on the header. With gas rising above $3.00, on the way to $4.00 a gallon, we are about to have a lot more bus riders.

Beyond switching to biodiesel (THE TIME IS NOW), the town needs to consider how they are going to handle the increase in ridership.

Robert Peterson,

I know that you don't have to be convinced about the value of a functional public transit system but I'm not sure about how many of our fellow citizens are as strong supporters as you. But as I've pointed out previously, adding service on the peak hours means additional buses and buses are big-time capital expenditures. Unless the majority of the citizens are commited to public transit then getting the money to finance such capital expenditures will be difficult. Perhaps with gas prices going through the roof and supplies dwindling we may see some additional converts. And anyone who thinks that the current situation is only a short, temporary inconvenience is too young to remember the gas crisis of the 70's. For years we have been living on the edge - one crisis (political or natural) away from inadequate supplies or unafordable prices. And in case anyone hasn't noticed, we have another three months of hurricane season, the possibility of a cold winter, and the Mid-East hasn't gotten any more stable.

As WillR previously pointed out there is a meeting next Wednesday at the Friday Center at which a consultant will present a draft of a plan to develop a long-range transit plan.

"Town Council Joint Meeting with the Chapel Hill/Carrboro/UNC Transit Partners; Wednesday, September 7, 2005, 7:00 p.m.; Friday Center"

I don't know whether they will be taking any comments from the public at this meeting but if you support increased public transit it wouldn't hurt to come out and tell your elected officials or candidates for office that you do, even if it's one-on-one.

George,
Given the current state of affairs, isn't an immediate switch to biodiesel fiscally responsible?

Too bad they didn't schedule the meeting for a time when attendees could actually take the bus to and from the Friday Center.

Robert--A couple of months ago I decided to buy an older diesel car so that I could use biodiesel fuels for my around town errands. Coudn't find one through the online ads anywhere in the Triangle. There's a story in the August Smithsonian about individuals who have converted their cars to run both biodiesel and standard fuel. Wouldn't that be a great new business idea for Carrboro--someone who could make those conversions!

Robert,
In principle, I say yes to your question but I don't have all of the facts. For instance, how many gallons of biodiesel would be required per month/per bus? Can the local suppliers produce that? If not, can they increase their production? If so, can their suppliers meet the increased needs? And in what time-frame? What about the existing contracts CHT has for kerosene? Are they long-term? Perhaps CHT is guaranteed a low price for kerosene for the next 6-months and it would still be cheaper to stay with kerosene until those contracts run out? I certainly agree that the use of biodiesel by CHT needs to be explored, and soon, and I appreciate the information that Lyle Estill has provided on this thread but I also recognize that Lyle has a financial stake in increasing the use of biodiesel (although I could also argue that we all have a financial stake in our transit system and its most cost-effective operation). I expect that this issue will be closely examined by CHT and the partners in the very near future.

Terri,
That seems like something the local biodiesel people should be working on with local repair shops.

I saw Lyle speak in RTP a few weeks back. If you haven't heard him before, he is a strong speaker with an excellent command of the biodiesel landscape. He and another speaker pointed out that right now, there is not enough production capacity to supply biodiesel to public agencies in large quantities.

Indeed, the other speaker (Clean Cities Coalition?) made the point that a mandate in MN to use 2% biodiesel was sucking up most of the supply in the US as it is today.

Lyle, I'm sure I got that a little right and a little wrong. Please improve upon my answer as you see fit.

Here's a frustrating situation: next Monday, Labor Day, is a "staff holiday" at UNC, but classes are meeting. So that means many faculty, students, and staff will have a normal weekday. Normally CHT buses don't run on Labor Day, but they are running on a reduced schedule this Monday.

At the same time, the governor is asking us to cut down on driving cars, and the university is sending out emails telling folks not to drive... but, on Monday, there's limited bus service around town.

Quite a conundrum. I wonder if Chapel Hill Transit can go back to full service on Monday? Or are we going to be stuck without reliable, regular transit at a time when we really need it?

Joan,
I'll never understand these mixed holidays. No staff, but faculty teach. No staff, but students on campus. No staff, but research continues.
Under these conditions, why not shut down and save a days resources. In fact, why not juggle classes to minimize energy usage for the short term.

CH Transit's website has this to say:

Chapel Hill Transit will operate the FULL SERVICE SATURDAY SCHEDULE on Monday Sept. 5, Labor Day. This will include the following routes:

CM/CW
DM
FG
JN
NU
U
T
In addition to the above service, the RU will operate on Monday, Sept. 5 (Labor Day). The RU will operate a full service weekday schedule.

Colin, thanks for the info... Unfortunately, full Saturday service is also known as "reduced service," because it's far reduced from from the regular weekday schedule. I'm glad the U and RU buses will be on full schedules.

Here's something else ridiculous, especially considering the current gas situation: apparently parking at UNC is open on Monday. Because the buses are running on a reduced schedule, there will be no ticketing (well, I suppose cars parked oddly will be ticketed).

So, while Easley has shut down non-essential government travel--which at UNC means the Duke-NC State-UNC library loan van isn't running once it runs out of gas, among other things--people are, in effect, being encouraged to drive because of the bus schedule.

Stolen from Matt Dees at CH News (sorry Matt, couldn't find the link)

Tonight at the Friday Center at 7 PM, a transit planner from Ontario will be giving a presentation on options for transit in the Chapel Hill area. Also to be broadcast on Time Warner cable channel 4.

Preliminary report from consultant here:
http://townhall.townofchapelhill.org/agendas/ca050113ps/4-additional%20m...

For those who are candidates for office who have expressed an interest in discussing transit as an issue in the election, this is a good event to attend.

While we talk about transit, if you live in Carrboro or Chapel Hill, and work in either Durham or Raleigh, please take the opportunity to ride the TTA buses. There are express buses to Durham and Raleigh from two stops in Chapel Hill. I rode the bus 3 out of 4 days this week. For state employees, it is free for the month of September. All you need is your State identification. The following is the link to the schedules. http://www.ridetta.org/Bus_Shuttle/Maps_Schedules/Aug2005/TTAExpressHome...

Joal Broun